Polish lines gone nuts (1921-P) success!!

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DHalladay
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Polish lines gone nuts (1921-P) success!!

Post by DHalladay » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:14 am

I've been attributing 1921-Ps all weekend, and of them this D1 reverse is the most mystifying. Not because there's nothing to work with, but because there's so many horizontal lines across the eagle's lower abdomen and upper tailfeathers. When I first saw it I thought, "well, this one will be easy." Even more mystifying is there's nothing in the D1 scribbles guide that matches, although this coin seems to have been touched up by the same brute Mint worker who created VAM 79. And the polishing isn't limited to just the eagle's UTFs and abdomen, the left wing got plenty of "lean into it!" attention too.

This is a very EDS coin, so there may be more detail shown here in the left scribbles zone than our attribution guide comes close to having... if we have one. Any help would be much appreciated.

33138529 scribbles 1.jpg
33138529 scribbles 1.jpg (266.26 KiB) Viewed 173 times
33138529 scribbles 2.jpg
33138529 scribbles 2.jpg (188.15 KiB) Viewed 173 times
33138529 left wing.jpg
33138529 left wing.jpg (272.78 KiB) Viewed 173 times
33138529 olive branch.jpg
33138529 olive branch.jpg (230.41 KiB) Viewed 173 times
33138529 bow.jpg
33138529 bow.jpg (152.67 KiB) Viewed 173 times
Last edited by DHalladay on Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When in doubt... don't.

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CascadeChris
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Re: Polish lines gone nuts (1921-P)

Post by CascadeChris » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:13 am

This looks familiar. There's even a scribbles variety that is very similar with horizontal lines in the upper TFs all the way to the breast like that and the page even states it's the "highest or thickest or most scribbles found to date" or something to that effect.
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morganman
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Re: Polish lines gone nuts (1921-P)

Post by morganman » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:26 am

Whatever vam it turns out to be, it is super Fantastic

Thanks Dennis; For posting
:|

fogie
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Re: Polish lines gone nuts (1921-P)

Post by fogie » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:48 am

Great pictures too!!!

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ljs123
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Re: Polish lines gone nuts (1921-P)

Post by ljs123 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:56 pm

Very interesting Dennis.
Ill have to look at this closely when I have a chance in the next few days.
Pretty busy right now.
Pretty coin.
Great photos.

DHalladay
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Re: Polish lines gone nuts (1921-P)

Post by DHalladay » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:06 pm

I spent quite a while this morning looking at this coin as possibly being an EDS VAM 1AT. It's similar to be sure, but it doesn't have the bold short vertical line shown in the middle of the left scribbles zone in the attribution page photo, and as bold as that is on an LDS coin it should be incredibly bold on an EDS coin. By the way, the several cracks shown in the attribution page photos are no help... this EDS coin has no cracks whatsoever.
When in doubt... don't.

weth
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Re: Polish lines gone nuts (1921-P)

Post by weth » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:16 am

I think I got it!

I agree that the polishing is similar to 1AT. I also looked twice at VAMs 19 and 79 for similar reasons.

But the lines by the eagle neck, gouge at the talon, and across the wreath match my VAM 41A.
So I think that's a VAM 41 EDS...

DHalladay
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Re: Polish lines gone nuts (1921-P)

Post by DHalladay » Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:25 pm

Weth – I totally agree!
My date is doubled, the left stars are tripled, the right stars are doubled, and UNUM looks to be too.

There are no attribution page scribbles photos for VAMs 41 or 41A, but the heavy horizontal lines on my coin really appear to match the ones on 41B. And the photo seen above of the gouge connecting the olive leaf cluster to the arrow feathers is on all of my VAM 41Bs.

Thank you!
When in doubt... don't.

RogerB
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Re: Polish lines gone nuts (1921-P) success!!

Post by RogerB » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:09 pm

This might help a little - not on variety attribution but regarding cause.

The photos show a considerable number of scratched arcs over parts of the relief, but much less in the fields. Design relief is also unusually low. Since new dies were mechanically deburred using a rotating abrasive disc and then cleaned up with a much finer abrasive, it is possible that an Engraving Department worker over did it in deburring and scratched much of the relief. A worker then attempted to remove the damage (to make the die usable) and in doing so, removed most of the field scratches but only par of the relief scratches.

Afterward, the die would have been tempered, dipped in acid to remove any oxidized metal, and put with completed dies for use.

(There is a related post on the PCGS message board concerning short arcs on Bombay Mint British Trade dollars. The cause there, is apparently from mechanical deburring that was not cleaned up.)

DHalladay
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Re: Polish lines gone nuts (1921-P) success!!

Post by DHalladay » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:33 pm

RogerB wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:09 pm
This might help a little - not on variety attribution but regarding cause.

The photos show a considerable number of scratched arcs over parts of the relief, but much less in the fields. Design relief is also unusually low. Since new dies were mechanically deburred using a rotating abrasive disc and then cleaned up with a much finer abrasive, it is possible that an Engraving Department worker over did it in deburring and scratched much of the relief. A worker then attempted to remove the damage (to make the die usable) and in doing so, removed most of the field scratches but only par of the relief scratches.

Afterward, the die would have been tempered, dipped in acid to remove any oxidized metal, and put with completed dies for use.

(There is a related post on the PCGS message board concerning short arcs on Bombay Mint British Trade dollars. The cause there, is apparently from mechanical deburring that was not cleaned up.)

Great information about the die preparation process that I previously had no idea about. I almost wonder if you somehow managed to go back in time and were there to watch the process! :D
When in doubt... don't.

blh74
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Re: Polish lines gone nuts (1921-P) success!!

Post by blh74 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:21 pm

RogerB gets my vote for +++Numismatist.

Flat-Chested
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Re: Polish lines gone nuts (1921-P) success!!

Post by Flat-Chested » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:42 pm

I took this picture of a Polish line in 1978, I think it was in Lublin.
Polish Line.jpg
Polish Line.jpg (92.36 KiB) Viewed 53 times

RogerB
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Re: Polish lines gone nuts (1921-P) success!!

Post by RogerB » Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:34 am

After years of reading thousands of original documents there comes a time when one begins (and only begins) to become aware of connections that are neither explicit nor obvious. Basic research forces one to consider language, custom, processes, roles, society and all the aspects of human interaction, each of which affects how and why people respond and comprehend situations.

Making sense out of so much diversity - data scatter - is part of opening the mind to creative thinking. But -- it takes time, patience, and a willingness to discard preconceptions. Writing From Mint to Mint as well as other books helped a lot.

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