Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

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messydesk
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Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by messydesk » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:18 pm

One question that comes up frequently is whether something is a doubled die or just machine (or mechanical, or ejection) doubling. These are two really good guides for answering that question. Since a picture is worth a thousand words, I'll start with this diagram by Charles Daughtrey (coppercoins.com) illustrating the difference between machine doubling and a doubled die (called "hub doubled" in the diagram).

Image

I'll follow that with this link to a monograph by JT Stanton about doubled dies and their evil mimics. JT wrote this years ago, and it's still an outstanding article about the differences. I include it as an appendix to the class notes of the Morgan Dollar class I teach at the ANA Summer Seminar.

I'm going to sticky this topic for now, in hopes that people take the time to learn this. It's quite important in this field, after all.
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ljs123
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by ljs123 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:05 pm

Thanks JB.
I get the concept of strike doubling, but I still get burned now and then.
Thanks for the remedial lesson and the link. I saved a copy for future reference.

bhinkle
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by bhinkle » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:09 pm

I have had the same illustration saved for years now and use it regularly John.
How does that illustration help you, with vams, that were attributed solely for the reason, of a doubled ear, like for instance the 1889 vam 20?
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messydesk
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by messydesk » Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:49 am

Even though there aren't notched serifs on an ear, you can note that the ear isn't smashed and the design is larger than normal, like on the drawing. If you look at JT's article, however, you will find the cause for much of the doubled ears, especially those doubled on both right and left inside toward the center of the coin -- die fatigue. There are some doubled ear VAMs that are not doubled in the early die state.
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raynat3
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by raynat3 » Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:41 am

My perception on the term "doubled die" is that it should occur on all coins struck by that die. I have thought and said that doubling due to die wear and work on the die should not be listed as doubling. If it is continued to be listed, should it be described more clearly so not to confuse people into thinking it die doubling or is my perception on "doubled die" just incorrect?

On another note when I look at known varieties of doubling on Lincoln and Wheat Cents, some of the varieties looks like strike doubling to me. The size of the letters and digits make it difficult to determine I think.

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messydesk
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by messydesk » Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:08 pm

raynat3 wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:41 am
My perception on the term "doubled die" is that it should occur on all coins struck by that die. I have thought and said that doubling due to die wear and work on the die should not be listed as doubling. If it is continued to be listed, should it be described more clearly so not to confuse people into thinking it die doubling or is my perception on "doubled die" just incorrect?
You are correct. In the case of the doubled ears, not all were obvious die fatigue, and over time many sort of revealed themselves to be. I ran into one the other day (1884-O VAM 43) that had no doubling inside the ear in the EDS, but was listed as doubled ear. It could be that due to the Great Melts, some die pairs are only known LDS and have die fatigue doubling in the ear. It makes them easier to attribute, because the ear is essentially a die marker, but they are not true doubled dies.
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vamsterdam
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by vamsterdam » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:12 pm

Machine doubling damage steals from the design to create a “doubled image.” The coin is still in contact with the dies while being ejected. However, in the case of die deterioration doubling, as has been mentioned, the dies become damaged due to wear and tear, and repeated attempts to polish the dies. Many of the doubled ears fall under this category and should never have been listed. Longacre doubling is another story and rarely happens on Morgan’s, probably due the size of the dies involved. It is often seen on Indian cents, 2c, 3c, $1 gold, $3 gold.

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messydesk
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by messydesk » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:15 pm

vamsterdam wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:12 pm
... Longacre doubling is another story and rarely happens on Morgan’s, probably due the size of the dies involved. It is often seen on Indian cents, 2c, 3c, $1 gold, $3 gold.
The closest thing to Longacre doubling on Morgans is the extra "crust" around IGWT. Doesn't look like doubling, but it's the same cause.
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CascadeChris
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by CascadeChris » Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:07 pm

messydesk wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:15 pm
vamsterdam wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:12 pm
... Longacre doubling is another story and rarely happens on Morgan’s, probably due the size of the dies involved. It is often seen on Indian cents, 2c, 3c, $1 gold, $3 gold.
The closest thing to Longacre doubling on Morgans is the extra "crust" around IGWT. Doesn't look like doubling, but it's the same cause.
I posted a Morgan with a doubled berry and leaf and Mitch called it Longacre. I was skeptical but my knowledge and experience of Longacre is primarily with IHCs and I just assumed it manifested itself a little differently on a Morgan.
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vamsterdam
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by vamsterdam » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:46 pm

I have seen a few Morgan’s with a small amount of shelving around the letters. Not much and not many.

Mhomei
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by Mhomei » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:15 pm

longacre doubling is seen regularily on 80 O series
usually around S T A T E S and on text stops

http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... ,_Longacre

Remodeling1
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by Remodeling1 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:47 pm

Yes I do. See post below.
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morganman
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by morganman » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:05 am

Yet more totaly confusing stuff to become aware of.
Another niche thats important but not to me LOL
Heck, I can barely manage to count and sort/file my collection, let lone worry
about some detais. Thank god we have VSS and JR etc to attrib Morgans.
Starting to look at the 8 bags from redfield- just opened first one -after 40 yr

I admit, quite exciting- not worrying about which vams, but rather grades
for now and labeling as such

Thanks for this post and JB answers/pics etc
:|

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UncleGildy
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by UncleGildy » Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:11 am

I hate to assume anything anymore (but yet I can't seem to break the habit), so I have to ask "is strike doubling?"
Strike-Doubling-Check2_Gildy.jpg
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The coin is a solid VF20, which explains some of what you see, but it might still be considered a cherry pick, as it was an 1883-O VAM-1C2 hiding behind some lousy photos for a few bucks over Blue Book.

Now that I've skimmed the article, I better go back and actually read it so I know which type and what lead to it. Being the 1C2 is a collapsed (deteriorating) die, I've got a good clue to start with.

Thanks JB for this post and great article!

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messydesk
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by messydesk » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:45 pm

UncleGildy wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:11 am
I hate to assume anything anymore (but yet I can't seem to break the habit), so I have to ask "is strike doubling?"
Yes
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Alionden
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by Alionden » Sun May 17, 2020 5:00 pm

Are there any reported double die errors on the 1922 p Peace Dollars? More specifically on the obverse in the lettering of “LIBERTY”?

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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by Alionden » Sun May 17, 2020 5:06 pm

98870A97-F1CD-41D7-A96C-2006190F3C94.jpeg
1922 d double die error?
98870A97-F1CD-41D7-A96C-2006190F3C94.jpeg (140.95 KiB) Viewed 4081 times
Alionden wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 5:00 pm
Are there any reported double die errors on the 1922 p Peace Dollars? More specifically on the obverse in the lettering of “LIBERTY”?

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messydesk
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by messydesk » Sun May 17, 2020 7:04 pm

Alionden wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 5:06 pm
98870A97-F1CD-41D7-A96C-2006190F3C94.jpeg
Alionden wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 5:00 pm
Are there any reported double die errors on the 1922 p Peace Dollars? More specifically on the obverse in the lettering of “LIBERTY”?
That's machine doubling. Note the smashed look to the letters as in the illustration at the top of the thread.
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morganlover
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by morganlover » Wed May 27, 2020 1:03 am

Great tutorial but i'm still having a hard time determining if this is a DDO or machine. What are your opinions?
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messydesk
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by messydesk » Wed May 27, 2020 1:33 am

First, thanks for reading through the intro stuff.

The N in UNUM isn't machine doubling, but it's recurring on many dies, and on some more strongly than other, so it's probably equivalent to the "Longacre" doubling, just not as pronounced as what you often see on Indian cents.
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