SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
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VAM-PIRE
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SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by VAM-PIRE » Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:42 am

Greetings All, I recently received my coins back from the latest bulk sub, all 3 of them. All were deemed to be ungradable. Let me start off by saying that this is NOT aimed at JB. IMHO, he goes above the call of duty for all of the membership. I thought all of my 3 coins were solid EF-AU, and would have looked good in a PCGS holder, but they do look good in their VSS holders. I have since learned that ungradable coins are not holdered if submitted in a bulk sub. I have also learned that the reason for them being ungradable is not given. Should I be complaining? Any advise, comments, or observations will be appreciated. Any hugs will be greatly appreciated.

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CascadeChris
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Re: SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by CascadeChris » Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:47 am

They were HARD on this one. Extremely tight. Extreemly. So don't feel too bad..
Alonzi VW 2.0!

VAM-PIRE
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Re: SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by VAM-PIRE » Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:07 am

Thanks, As good as a hug!!!!!!!!!!!!

78-sLongnock
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Re: SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by 78-sLongnock » Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:17 am

Thanks for the love, I also sent in a number of low grade Morgan’s in hopes of a few grading
But no such luck this time.
😩
Last edited by 78-sLongnock on Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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messydesk
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Re: SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by messydesk » Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:56 am

One of the things I dread with these submissions is telling someone that a large number of their coins didn't grade. The silver lining is that there's very little cost compared to sending them for grading through a normal submission. My suggestion to everyone who gets more no-grades than they expect is to buy some problem free coins in similar grades and study them and the no-grades closely. Even buy a slabbed details coin and study that, if you want. To spin the phrase "if you want to catch a thief, think like a thief," if you want to stay ahead of a grader, think like one. Study surfaces, as that's where most no-grades are flagged. Use a darkened room with a small light source and compare no-grades with others. Turn the coin around a lot. Use lots of lighting angles to view them. Then use a different type of light and see how they look different. Keep studying and you will learn how to pick these out yourself. Take your time. The 5-seconds-per-coin saying is a myth, although some problems can be spotted that quickly. If something about a coin makes a grader uneasy, they'll study it more closely. Problem coins is a topic covered in the advanced grading class at the ANA, and also briefly in the Morgan dollar class. While self-study is no substitute for having someone point out exactly what you should be seeing on a coin, it's far better than simply rolling the dice next time and hoping for the best.

Finally, don't think you're alone. Everyone has been there.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

VAM-PIRE
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Re: SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by VAM-PIRE » Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:34 am

Hey John, Great info, and remember what I said earlier, "this is NOT aimed at JB." Like you said, comparison is a good way to learn do's and don'ts. We usually assume that the problem deals with improper cleaning, but the coin in hand, along with a brief statement from the grader, I feel would go a long way. Its like those hard to see clashes. I can look at a coin all day and not see the clash, but with a picture with an arrow, I can find it pretty quick. Am I being unreasonable?

Scootersdad
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Re: SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by Scootersdad » Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:36 pm

What Chris said.

weth
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Re: SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by weth » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:16 pm

Aw, hugs! Getting back all no-grades is indeed rough.

What JB said - many of the coins that I've sent in that didn't get slabbed simply looked good at arms length. When you get in close, there are sometimes surface marks, treatments, and tarnishing that might prevent proper grading.

And, indeed, sometimes PCGS is just picky to the point of being wrong. I got back a shiny 83P in a VSS slab and couldn't really see what was wrong with it. Sent it to ANACS, and it came back MS62 Cameo PL. Perceiving the condition of a coin as a true grader might judge it to be is part of the numismatic craft. Developing your skills is an ongoing pursuit.

VAM-PIRE
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Re: SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by VAM-PIRE » Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:26 pm

All good info but my question still remains. Would it be too much to ask the grader what was wrong with the coin that caused him to NG it? For example, if the coin had been whizzed, I'd like to know. I've never held a whizzed coin in my hand that I know of, and having one on file might be helpful for future comparisons. Again, am I being unreasonable?

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messydesk
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Re: SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by messydesk » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:24 pm

When they put coins in details holders, they tell you what the problem is, but in general terms -- cleaned, questionable color, damage, scratch, ex jewelry, etc. For bulk, them not saying anything keeps the cost down. Even on slabs that tell you the problem, sometimes you need to have someone else point it out to you in person before it makes sense.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

VAM-PIRE
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Re: SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by VAM-PIRE » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:36 pm

Touchette, Now how bout that hug?

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VernP
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Re: SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by VernP » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:51 pm

I was disappointed in a few grades and blown away by one. But after seeing some of the other comments I'm going to count myself blessed on my submission.

VAM-PIRE
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Re: SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by VAM-PIRE » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:13 pm

You go Vern, Was that a hug?

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HawkeEye
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Re: SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by HawkeEye » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:15 pm

I was a lowball collector for a few years and I found PCGS to be very unpredictable on this front. The closer you get to PO-01 the tougher it is to get things graded, UNLESS, you happen to hit the right grader on the right day. Some coins I submitted ten or twelve times before they passed and including documentation seemed to hurt rather than help because I was seen as challenging their judgement I guess. COINMAN2000 has a lot more experience on this front than anyone else, but his experience is similar.

Maybe we need to pass along a hug or two to the ND football fans also. They were not feeling the love yesterday.
Deep in the woods of North Georgia

vamsterdam
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Re: SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by vamsterdam » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:01 pm

I haven't even looked at which ones did not grade yet, but it looks like a fair number. I have had quite a few come back Ng in one and back the next time only to get graded, sometimes it is a numbers game. someone we all know has told me to EXPECT a number of coins to come back NG. I still have coins in hlders from the old bulk program that are simply ridiculous. I have sold some of them just as they were too. the buyers thought pcgs was being ridiculous.

VAM-PIRE
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Re: SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by VAM-PIRE » Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:48 pm

One more thought to ponder. What shall I tell the seller when he asks me why I want to return the coin for a refund?

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messydesk
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Re: SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by messydesk » Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:55 pm

VAM-PIRE wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:48 pm
One more thought to ponder. What shall I tell the seller when he asks me why I want to return the coin for a refund?
If you've had it long enough to send it for grading, chances are you won't be able to return it unless it's counterfeit. Otherwise, simply stating that upon looking at it in hand, it's not for you should be sufficient for any reasonable seller.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

VAM-PIRE
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Re: SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by VAM-PIRE » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:30 am

Thanks John, My new nickname for you is "Daddy", because your advice is always second to none. It will be our secret, and I won't tell anyone, and I won't ever ask for a loan. The main coin in the group of 3 was an 83s. I got it off the bay for $36 raw, and it turned out to be a Vam 2. My problem is that once I buy a coin, esp. a Morgan, I can't let go of it. They become like children (yes, your grandchildren). So what's the punch line of all this? If you take a chance on a raw coin and it turns out to be a lemon, make lemon aid. Ain't life great? Happy New Year everybody!!!!!

blh74
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Re: SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by blh74 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:21 am

I am glad to know I`m not the only one. I really believe JB`s advice. I finally found the cleaning on a NG that was slabbed. Wow that grader is sharp.

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UncleGildy
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Re: SOMBODY NEEDS A HUG

Post by UncleGildy » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:28 am

I feel your pain. Luckily I was able to ask JB before he shipped them back and he told me they were lightly cleaned. I think he used the adverb "lightly" to soften the blow.

My two NGs were the coins I cherished most! (Except maybe my 81O v47 and a 98O 13A with a triple clash). Both NGs were 1878's I found in the wild: a VAM40A, and a VAM114A. I love the 40A and was heartbroken to see that they were being so strict. I've seen worse in PCGS slabs before, which did not call out cleaning.

Hey, they both do cartwheels for me and still exhibit some luster (I was expecting AU). But now that I look at them as JB described, I see that I have to get the lighting just right for them to perform. A closer inspection of the surface would have told me to expect NG without a good bit of luck.

Here are the NG classifications for PCGS when not submitted in bulk (click on "No Grades" and you'll see code 92 for cleaning and the others JB mentioned). And here are a few other grading FAQs from PCGS.

On the bright side, I didn't end up paying PCGS to slab my coin, stamp it "CLEANED" and then charge me money.

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