I may have met my match (21-P VAM 1)

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DHalladay
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I may have met my match (21-P VAM 1)

Post by DHalladay » Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:53 pm

I've owned hundreds of Mint State D1 reverse 1921-Ps over the years, and until yesterday I had never identified a single one as VAM 1. I've even taken several coins that grading services had called VAM 1 and found their actual VAM number. I'm actually of the opinion that VAM 1 may not actually exist, except in circulated grades where key PUP details have been worn off.

But I may have met my match, courtesy of an ANACS-64 VAM 1 that Twohawks sent me... and it's not for lack of trying. Can anyone help?

– It has tripled or doubled left stars.
– It has tripled or doubled right stars.
– The top of Liberty's cap is doubled.
– The date has doubled 1s (and I think the 2).
– There are more vertical polishing lines through the word LIBERTY than I've ever seen.
– There are more horizontal polishing lines across the back of Liberty's cheek area than I've ever seen.
– There are many polishing lines around the cotton blossoms and leaves.
– There is light beveling below the denticles above ST.
– There is a short polish/gouge line at the left end of the 7th (from the bottom) outer feather of the left wing.
– The only crack on the coin is in the wreath above ONE.
– There are only traces of scribbles and there is is faint. There are weak scribbles outside of eagle's right leg, there are two short parallel scribbles at the top of the left zone, and a delicate curving acribble at the bottom of the left opening.

6107745 cap dbld.jpg
6107745 cap dbld.jpg (148.48 KiB) Viewed 3080 times
6107745 LIBERTY lines.jpg
6107745 LIBERTY lines.jpg (271.28 KiB) Viewed 3080 times
6107745 bolls lines.jpg
6107745 bolls lines.jpg (284.75 KiB) Viewed 3080 times
6107745 cheek lines.jpg
6107745 cheek lines.jpg (322.69 KiB) Viewed 3080 times
6107745 date ganged.jpg
6107745 date ganged.jpg (243.52 KiB) Viewed 3080 times
When in doubt... don't.

DHalladay
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Re: I may have met my match (21-P VAM 1)

Post by DHalladay » Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:55 pm

6107745 beveling.jpg
6107745 beveling.jpg (215.63 KiB) Viewed 3079 times
6107745 left wing.jpg
6107745 left wing.jpg (273.41 KiB) Viewed 3079 times
6107745 crack ONE.jpg
6107745 crack ONE.jpg (245.66 KiB) Viewed 3079 times
6107745 scribbles 1 cropped.jpg
6107745 scribbles 1 cropped.jpg (303.48 KiB) Viewed 3079 times
6107745 scribbles 2 cropped.jpg
6107745 scribbles 2 cropped.jpg (310.9 KiB) Viewed 3079 times
When in doubt... don't.

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messydesk
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Re: I may have met my match (21-P VAM 1)

Post by messydesk » Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:11 pm

Are you sure the top of the cap isn't machine doubling? This is one you're going to have to hang on to until you find a PL that has the same gouge in the wing.
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DHalladay
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Re: I may have met my match (21-P VAM 1)

Post by DHalladay » Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:08 pm

messydesk wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:11 pm
Are you sure the top of the cap isn't machine doubling? This is one you're going to have to hang on to until you find a PL that has the same gouge in the wing.
Thanks John.
The answer is it might be.
BUS also shows some minor doubling (?), but all of it is less overt than I'm experienced at being able to identify.
When in doubt... don't.

Mhomei
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Re: I may have met my match (21-P VAM 1)

Post by Mhomei » Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:04 pm

Dennis
by default it cannot be a V1 with doubled right and left stars, so just step and think about the star doubling
and there position on the coin, if all doubling is towards the rim than its not a VAM-1, if the doubling on both sets of stars are on the left or on the right than its strike doubling.

sounds like we got some searching to do,

DHalladay
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Re: I may have met my match (21-P VAM 1)

Post by DHalladay » Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:30 pm

Mhomei wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:04 pm
Dennis
by default it cannot be a V1 with doubled right and left stars, so just step and think about the star doubling
and there position on the coin, if all doubling is towards the rim than its not a VAM-1, if the doubling on both sets of stars are on the left or on the right than its strike doubling.

sounds like we got some searching to do,
Mitch: Thanks for weighing in!
The thinner 'under' part of the doubling on both left and right stars is not dramatic and it is closest to the rim. In other words, it looks just like what is so very common throughout the 1921-P catalog.
When in doubt... don't.

weth
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Re: I may have met my match (21-P VAM 1)

Post by weth » Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:31 pm

That sure looks like a VAM 29A from here. Check the collar.

weth
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Re: I may have met my match (21-P VAM 1)

Post by weth » Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:41 pm

Actually, it's probably a VAM 94. Die breaks aren't big enough to be a 29A. Now more curious about the collar type...

DHalladay
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Re: I may have met my match (21-P VAM 1)

Post by DHalladay » Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:55 pm

weth wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:31 pm
That sure looks like a VAM 29A from here. Check the collar.

OMG Tom... that's it! Thank you!!

The coin is in a newer yellow ANACS holder, so there's no exposed clear view of the reeds, but they sure looked spaced out from what I can see through the plastic.

6107745 reeds.jpg
6107745 reeds.jpg (65.82 KiB) Viewed 3022 times

The crack above ONE hasn't progressed through the wreath, so it's nowhere close to the top of the E yet, but the part that is there is a match to 29A.

The mass of horizontal polishing lines across the back of Liberty's cheek area is a match too.

And the gouge in the 7th left wing feather is a dead match to my two VSS-attributed 29As. In fact, the gouge is the photo PUP on one of the VSS stickers. Interestingly, my ANACS VAM 29 (very semi-PL surfaces and no trace of crack or beveling) doesn't yet have the 7th feather gouge.

Tom, thanks for keeping my no-VAM 1 streak intact! :D
When in doubt... don't.

Mhomei
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Re: I may have met my match (21-P VAM 1)

Post by Mhomei » Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:38 pm


Mhomei
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Re: I may have met my match (21-P VAM 1)

Post by Mhomei » Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:40 pm

RTY Plate is a dead ringer for the obverse

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messydesk
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Re: I may have met my match (21-P VAM 1)

Post by messydesk » Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:16 pm

DHalladay wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:55 pm
And the gouge in the 7th left wing feather is a dead match to my two VSS-attributed 29As. In fact, the gouge is the photo PUP on one of the VSS stickers. Interestingly, my ANACS VAM 29 (very semi-PL surfaces and no trace of crack or beveling) doesn't yet have the 7th feather gouge.
I've updated the VAM 29 and 29A pages to reflect this observation. It could be a better way of delineating 29 and 29A than the gradually growing spikes above STATES.
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Geseas
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Re: I may have met my match (21-P VAM 1)

Post by Geseas » Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:59 pm

...I am afraid to admit I am still stuck on the first photograph and comments in this informative post.

Does the following photograph match @DHalladay's first photo in this post? I think it does.

Sooo: is this photo all the evidence you need to prove it is indeed the die-doubling, not machine doubling?

Thank you for your patience and any comment on this great Site!
gcc_21p_D1.jpg
gcc_21p_D1.jpg (202.48 KiB) Viewed 2975 times
compare cap.jpg
compare cap.jpg (89.6 KiB) Viewed 2970 times
In other words: Is identical Machine doubling likely/possible?

Note: (may not be a match__ waiting for the Sun to come out for better photos) maybe till spring.
GCs_1921-P_d1.jpg
GCs_1921-P_d1.jpg (282.76 KiB) Viewed 2930 times

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