1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

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TheYokel
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1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by TheYokel » Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:25 am

Morning all.

Was wondering why the weird 'tweener stage of 3A-B never got listed?

It has an N, and is definitely a separate stage. Why did it never get any love?

And are we positive that this stage wasn't *before* the VAM-3A?

The clash on the back of the cap on 3A could have easily hidden the die break if the clash were deeper than the crack... It hid it on the 3B, after-all.

We know it was before 3B because it's missing the M gouge, but what exactly proves that it was after the 3A clash?

Looking at the progression of some of the die cracks... I'm starting to convince myself that this stage is actually between 3 and 3A... Not between 3A and 3B...

For instance: the crack on my reverse from the E doesn't extend all the way passed the edge of the T, but it looks like it does on the 3A...

It's also my new favorite E contender at the moment from this progression. Best phantom yet if not, anyways...

Lemme know what you think.
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Re: 1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by TheYokel » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:14 pm

To clarify my thinking on the hair/cap break:

If the 3A came first, then the crack/break would either have to:

A) be deep enough to be seen after the 3A cap clash, even though it's not deep enough to be seen after the 3B clash...

Or

B) happened after the clash from 3A was repaired, but before 3B... but if it was repaired, the neck and lip clashes shouldn't be there...

I don't see how the crack/break could have formed deep enough to be seen after 3A, but not be deep enough to be seen after 3B...

I'm starting to think it happened before 3A, and the original 3A clash covered it up, and that's why it isn't seen on 3B.

It may have also been what started the break we see on 3B...
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Re: 1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by TheYokel » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:52 pm

To further illustrate:

If you look at the reverse of the "Typical 3A"... It already has the clash mark present from the Unlisted 3x.

If the 3x came after the 3A... This clash line wouldn't be there...

I'm all but convinced that this coin is actually the earliest clash documented... Not the 3A...

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Re: 1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by JASONKFLO » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:03 pm

That’s very interesting explanation . Thank you . I do not know about this one but I appreciate the info . I will be searching for one now though haha. I need to find a list of all the phantom and potential E clashers
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Re: 1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by TheYokel » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:59 pm

I would also posit the cap clash...

If 3A came first, why do we not see residual wreath marks behind the cap on the 3x?

If the dies were polished/repaired as seen before 3B, then the clash marks on the reverse N wouldn't be there either.

I really do believe this stage might be listed out of order...

You can also see the lack of wreath marks on the sample photo here:
http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... 4-crop.JPG
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Re: 1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by Unc90o » Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:58 pm

Was wondering why the weird 'tweener stage of 3A-B never got listed?
It has an N, and is definitely a separate stage. Why did it never get any love?
I have inverted the color on your photo to enhance possibility of that clashed 'n' that you are seeing.
WRDgogBx.jpg
WRDgogBx.jpg (159.54 KiB) Viewed 748 times
I can't see the clashed 'n' on your coin. Comment #2 on 3A page mentioned that 3A being polished afterward (before it became 3B). I think your tweener is VAM-3.

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Re: 1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by TheYokel » Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:59 pm

Actually, if you zoom in on the 3A cap... You can even see the crack.

Yeah. The 3x came first. 100%...
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Re: 1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by TheYokel » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:05 am

Unc90o wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:58 pm
Was wondering why the weird 'tweener stage of 3A-B never got listed?
It has an N, and is definitely a separate stage. Why did it never get any love?
I have inverted the color on your photo to enhance possibility of that clashed 'n' that you are seeing.
WRDgogBx.jpg

I can't see the clashed 'n' on your coin. Comment #2 on 3A page mentioned that 3A being polished afterward (before it became 3B). I think your tweener is VAM-3.
It's easier to see in black and white... Adding to the fact I'm photo'ing a toned coin through an NGC slab...

Per polishing: if the cap clash were removed because of polishing, the wing clash on the reverse would have been also, along with the matching lip clashes.
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Re: 1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by JASONKFLO » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:23 am

TheYokel wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:05 am
Unc90o wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:58 pm
Was wondering why the weird 'tweener stage of 3A-B never got listed?
It has an N, and is definitely a separate stage. Why did it never get any love?
I have inverted the color on your photo to enhance possibility of that clashed 'n' that you are seeing.
WRDgogBx.jpg

I can't see the clashed 'n' on your coin. Comment #2 on 3A page mentioned that 3A being polished afterward (before it became 3B). I think your tweener is VAM-3.
It's easier to see in black and white... Adding to the fact I'm photo'ing a toned coin through an NGC slab...

Per polishing: if the cap clash were removed because of polishing, the wing clash on the reverse would have been also, along with the matching lip clashes.
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how common is this stage? Going through ebay today I saw quite a few vam 3 of some stage though poor photos I am not sure which I was seeing
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Unc90o
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Re: 1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by Unc90o » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:31 am

Per polishing: if the cap clash were removed because of polishing, the wing clash on the reverse would have been also, along with the matching lip clashes.
You would think so, but not necessarily true back then :D . The mint worker sometime only polished out certain area and not the entire die; probably to save time so they can put it back to production sooner.

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Re: 1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by TheYokel » Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:13 am

Unc90o wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:31 am
Per polishing: if the cap clash were removed because of polishing, the wing clash on the reverse would have been also, along with the matching lip clashes.
You would think so, but not necessarily true back then :D . The mint worker sometime only polished out certain area and not the entire die; probably to save time so they can put it back to production sooner.
The M gouge was, in my eyes, caused by the polishing job... And it isn't seen yet on the 3x or 3A. I really think this came before...

It would also be much faster to polish with a single flat plane and do the entire die than one single area... If speed were an issue..

Re: How many of this stage?

I honestly couldn't say. I've had this one for years and haven't actually hunted for one. My apologies that I can't give an actual answer...

@messydesk

What's this? Why did I get IP banned all of a sudden?
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Re: 1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by JASONKFLO » Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:36 am

I hope it wasn't me . I was trying to hit the quote button on my phone but hit the exclamation point by accident and but quickly hit return and hit the quote button. If so I apologize
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Re: 1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by blh74 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:51 am

I am glad you are back posting. You make people think. I agree there is some confusion in the listing, at least for me. I have a few of these I will be checking out.

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Re: 1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by messydesk » Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:17 am

TheYokel wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:13 am

@messydesk

What's this? Why did I get IP banned all of a sudden?
This happens once in a while when a device picks up a blacklisted IP address. You can follow the link and it takes you to some explanations and guidance. It happened to me once at an airport lounge in Tokyo. I disconnected from the wifi, then reconnected and it was OK.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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Re: 1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by TheYokel » Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:06 am

messydesk wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:17 am
TheYokel wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:13 am

@messydesk

What's this? Why did I get IP banned all of a sudden?
This happens once in a while when a device picks up a blacklisted IP address. You can follow the link and it takes you to some explanations and guidance. It happened to me once at an airport lounge in Tokyo. I disconnected from the wifi, then reconnected and it was OK.
Thank you boss.

Blh: and thank you also. Hope you both had a happy holiday season.
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Re: 1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by vampicker » Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:23 pm

I'll say it. Are you certain you've correctly attributed the piece in question?
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Re: 1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by vampicker » Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:35 pm

BTW, look at the VAM 7 listing. The earliest stage of VAM 3 has no wing spikes, but has reverse only single clash marks from its use in the VAM 7 marriage.
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Re: 1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by TheYokel » Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:46 pm

vampicker wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:23 pm
I'll say it. Are you certain you've correctly attributed the piece in question?
It's a very spikey birdie...
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Re: 1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by vampicker » Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:27 pm

3a
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Re: 1882-CC VAM-3x... Why Unlisted?... And Out of Sequence?...

Post by TheYokel » Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:29 pm

vampicker wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:27 pm
3a
That doesn't answer the question of:

A) why the page lists this stage as *after* the "typical 3A" and before the 3B...

Or

B) why it isn't a separate stage altogether...?
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