New take on 1889 VAM 23A

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
User avatar
LateDateMorganGuy
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:11 am

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:44 am

Die studies are cool things, especially when the best of the best in the hobby get together, share coins and have an outcome. Congrats to all involved. Very cool study and sequence and conclusions!!!!!!!

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 1180
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by vampicker » Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:34 pm

Here's a copy of the letter I sent Van Allen
Page 1
Attachments
lva letter 89 v23a sep20 pg1.jpg
lva letter 89 v23a sep20 pg1.jpg (163.95 KiB) Viewed 517 times
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 1180
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by vampicker » Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:35 pm

Page 2
Attachments
lva letter 89 v23a sep20 pg2.jpeg
lva letter 89 v23a sep20 pg2.jpeg (163.48 KiB) Viewed 517 times
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 1180
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by vampicker » Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:35 pm

Page 3
Attachments
lva letter 89 v23a sep20 pg3.jpg
lva letter 89 v23a sep20 pg3.jpg (131 KiB) Viewed 517 times
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

User avatar
alefzero
Posts: 367
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:33 pm
Location: San Diego
Contact:

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by alefzero » Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:22 pm

I begs for an experiment that would require a coin press and someone who can prepare Morgan dies, with the obverse not hardened. It would be useful to see just how many struck coins would give the level of surface deterioration found on the VAM-23A specimens found thus far.

Here are some issues. If the lack of hardening produced rapid deterioration, just how rapid and whether it reaches some point of relative stabilization is important. Assuming all of the known VAM-23A specimens exhibit the same level of deterioration, it would suggest a very short episode of striking on the clashed die pair, that stability was reached and each strike did not significantly impair the die, or that there is an alternate explanation. If tests show immediate and not particularly progressive deterioration throughout striking, then anything is possible and the VAM-23 might or might not exist. However, if it presents like on the 23A strikes immediately and progressively deteriorates, that suggests a set up clash (no likely 23 strikes) and very, very few 23A strikes.

We might also consider some notably failed reverse dies (one comes to mind immediately) that might suggest an unhardened reverse. There could be differences in presentation die to the die design and the hammer/anvil difference in the impact.

User avatar
andywoj00
Posts: 278
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 3:22 pm
Contact:

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by andywoj00 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:54 pm

@messydesk Why are the 89P V7 and V23 series VAM page listing not lining up with the September 2020 LVA letter and plate photos? Am I missing something?
Andy

User avatar
messydesk
Site Admin
Posts: 2341
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 1:57 am

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by messydesk » Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:04 pm

I didn't finish last night. Will take care of it soon. I want to be careful untying this so that it's accurate and so that the change history of the pages makes as much sense as possible.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

User avatar
andywoj00
Posts: 278
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 3:22 pm
Contact:

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by andywoj00 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:27 pm

messydesk wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:04 pm
I didn't finish last night. Will take care of it soon. I want to be careful untying this so that it's accurate and so that the change history of the pages makes as much sense as possible.
Got it. Thank you!

User avatar
PacificWR
Posts: 1379
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 12:17 pm
Location: Kansas Flint Hills
Contact:

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by PacificWR » Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:51 pm

JR,
The are some very important facts left out of your letter and the VAM description of VAM-23A. First the damage to the neck of VAM-23A that was caused by very severe clashing events (my VAM-23A has three clashing events) was permanent and no amount of polishing is going to fix the damage. This damage will be present though out the life of the obverse die. Second, the reverse does have a clash mark (very weak) to the N of In, so that really questions the weak die theory. The VAM-23B was another severe multi clashed event that damaged the jaw. The multi clash event was higher up than the VAM-23A clashing events which mean the clashing would be to the right of the N of IN and into the field. In addition, the lip clash is also very severe as 3/4 of a right wreath leave was left on the lip. Another thing is the improper hardening of the dies is nothing new. It was so common at the New Orleans mint and to a lesser degree the San Francisco mint. I have a whole section on this in my 1900-S die study (mint correspondence). The problem with the hardening of the dies at the New Orleans mint was not resolved until a gas furnace was installed in 1900. The Philly mint sent an employee down to New Orleans to supervise the installation and train the folks on the hardening of dies. Before the gas furnace was installed at the New Orleans mint there were numerous clashed dies thought out the years which clearly showed clashing on the obverse and reverse. Finally, if you have a improperly hardened die it will be just a matter of time before die cracks and breaks will start showing up and on the 1889-P VAM-23A though the old VAM-23D there are none.

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 1180
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by vampicker » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:22 pm

Think about what you are claiming to attempt to dispute my findings. VAM 23A and 23B are different stages of the same die marriage. The clash on the 'new' 23B you posted in this thread clearly had to occur while that obverse and reverse were mated as these dies are mated just before before and just after said event. This second very disruptive obverse clash event left no mark on its reverse mate. Reconcile that piece of the puzzle. That former VAM 7A MDS example actually is a close match for one of the pieces I sent Van Allen.

I get this idea is radical, but maybe it deserves a slower, closer look.
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

User avatar
ljs123
Posts: 1365
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:16 pm

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by ljs123 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:30 pm

I would love to be at FUN when you give your talk.
😀

crabscrape
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 10:38 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by crabscrape » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:49 pm

The 7B is a part of the key also. Yes, I like to be there to listen to both John & Wayne on this. Not to takes side, but I agree with U John.

User avatar
PacificWR
Posts: 1379
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 12:17 pm
Location: Kansas Flint Hills
Contact:

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by PacificWR » Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:30 am

vampicker wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:22 pm
Think about what you are claiming to attempt to dispute my findings. VAM 23A and 23B are different stages of the same die marriage. The clash on the 'new' 23B you posted in this thread clearly had to occur while that obverse and reverse were mated as these dies are mated just before before and just after said event. This second very disruptive obverse clash event left no mark on its reverse mate. Reconcile that piece of the puzzle. That former VAM 7A MDS example actually is a close match for one of the pieces I sent Van Allen.

I get this idea is radical, but maybe it deserves a slower, closer look.
JR,

I know exactly what I am saying here. What I am saying what happened to the VAM-23B or old VAM-23C is the same thing that happened with the VAM-23A. Like I have stated before my VAM-23A has three clashing events. I think the original reverse die was taken out of service after the second severe clashing event and replaced with another reverse die. Next, there was a third clashing event and that is what caused the faint clash on the reverse die. Moving on to the VAM-23B we both know the obverse die was removed and repolished. Well, what if the reverse die was removed at the same time and replaced with another reverse die? Just like with the VAM-23A. Next, we have the multi severe clashing events on the old VAM-23C that very likely caused damage to the reverse die. The damaged reverse die is then taken out of service and replaced with the same reverse die with the faint clash to the N of IN from VAM-23A. That sure would explain why there is no clashing (except the faint N) on the reverse die of the old VAM-23C. Next, there is some important information on the die progression that you missed. I will go over this once I have all my coins back in place. This will take a couple of days, because of time re·straints. I do have all of the coins in the die progression that include some loaners from a friend.

Finally, I think you are right. Maybe this should be slowed down a bit for a closer look.

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 1180
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by vampicker » Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:46 am

So, random remarriage? FYI, this....
Attachments
89 v7a eds 9617.JPG
89 v7a eds 9617.JPG (143.63 KiB) Viewed 427 times
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 1180
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by vampicker » Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:47 am

is mated with this...
Attachments
89 v7a eds 9677.JPG
89 v7a eds 9677.JPG (115.43 KiB) Viewed 427 times
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 1180
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by vampicker » Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:52 am

And where's the triple clash? I see a crumbled die along the edge of a remarkably deep clash line.
Attachments
89 v23a 9538.JPG
89 v23a 9538.JPG (125.49 KiB) Viewed 427 times
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 1180
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by vampicker » Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:55 am

more crumbled edges on the clash from the wreath
Attachments
89 v23a 9539.JPG
89 v23a 9539.JPG (154.75 KiB) Viewed 427 times
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 1180
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by vampicker » Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:56 am

and a divot above the lip
Attachments
89 v23a 9552.JPG
89 v23a 9552.JPG (131.22 KiB) Viewed 427 times
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 1180
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by vampicker » Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:59 am

and the same reverse
Attachments
89 v23a 9588.JPG
89 v23a 9588.JPG (140.3 KiB) Viewed 426 times
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 1180
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: New take on 1889 VAM 23A

Post by vampicker » Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:07 pm

Now to be fair, even if the VAM 23A is triple clashed, that is largely irrelevant to the present discussion. It's not like there are different stages of the 23A - if there is a multiple clash, it's from successive strikes with no coins produced in between. It still doesn't account for the weirdness of this obverse. Other multiple clash pieces are known and they just don't look like this thing. The 7 clash version of the 86-O VAM 1A is a good illustration, with five clashing strikes and no intervening coins produced during the event that ended the two clash stage.
The crumbled die in this progression has been staring us in the face for over twenty years. It's just that the hellacious clashing has consumed all the attention. I'm not 100% on board with the way Leroy described this as the first reported improperly hardened die. There are others including a clashed version in the 83-O VAM 1C2, but I'm not going to quibble over this point. It too is largely irrelevant to the appreciation of this progression
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

Post Reply