1880 P 1A series

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JohnGoldsmith
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1880 P 1A series

Post by JohnGoldsmith » Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:54 pm

Our current page (1A1) has a picture of a partial date with a crack starting at the first 8. Should that picture be removed?
Also the SSDC list three examples. 1A1, 1A2 EDS and 1A2.
Are these classified as 1A1 no obverse crack.
1A2 EDS, obverse crack not far enough to be a Top 100
1A2 Knobbed 8 Top 100 coin.
We only list 1A1 and 1A2 on VAMworld.
Should we also list the 1A2 EDS?

DHalladay
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Re: 1880 P 1A series

Post by DHalladay » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:04 pm

JohnGoldsmith wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:54 pm
Our current page (1A1) has a picture of a partial date with a crack starting at the first 8. Should that picture be removed?
Also the SSDC list three examples. 1A1, 1A2 EDS and 1A2.
Are these classified as 1A1 no obverse crack.
1A2 EDS, obverse crack not far enough to be a Top 100
1A2 Knobbed 8 Top 100 coin.
We only list 1A1 and 1A2 on VAMworld.
Should we also list the 1A2 EDS?

Great question.
Where are the other Johns when we need them? :lol:
When in doubt... don't.

JohnGoldsmith
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Re: 1880 P 1A series

Post by JohnGoldsmith » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:32 pm

Great question.
Where are the other Johns when we need them? :lol:

Sometimes we have an abundance of John's. When you have a emergency a John is never close enough.

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impairedsquirrel
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Re: 1880 P 1A series

Post by impairedsquirrel » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:07 am

As much as it pains me to say, you pretty much got it right Rabbit.
As for the discrepancy between VW and the registry, VW has to stick to the official listings while the registry can take some liberties. The registry mods apparently felt that the "cracked, but not broke" stage of the v1a was worthy of a spot.
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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messydesk
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Re: 1880 P 1A series

Post by messydesk » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:30 am

This is a case not unlike the Scarface. There are 4 entries in the VAM catalog that cover 10 collectible die stages. Once upon a time, the 80 VAM 1A was collected for the LDS knobbed 8, and that's how it is pictured in the Top 100 book. That there is another stage now considered to be part of a listing that was split up complicates how it is collected. The VAMWorld listings need to be true to what the official VAM catalog lists. The registry can additionally allow die stages not covered in VAM. For the Scarface, it's H-0 through H-10. For the 80 VAM 1A, it's no crack (1A1), partial knob (1A2 EDS) and the one originally listed in the VAM book as VAM 1A at the time the Top 100 was published, which stated "large knob of metal" in the description (1A2). The reason to list both die stages in the registry is not so much that the 1A2 EDS is worthy as it is that the 1A2 EDS is not the more sought-after LDS with the actual knobbed 8.

(Edited to fix date.)
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JohnGoldsmith
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Re: 1880 P 1A series

Post by JohnGoldsmith » Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:46 pm

impairedsquirrel wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:07 am
As much as it pains me to say, you pretty much got it right Rabbit.
As for the discrepancy between VW and the registry, VW has to stick to the official listings while the registry can take some liberties. The registry mods apparently felt that the "cracked, but not broke" stage of the v1a was worthy of a spot.
So if I VAM the coin and I have a 1A2 EDS, will it come back as a 1A1 or a 1A2?
If it is slabbed as a 1A1, then I have to change the VAM number and relist it as a 1A2 EDS?
If it slabbed as a 1A2, its not a Top 100.

DHalladay
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Re: 1880 P 1A series

Post by DHalladay » Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:56 pm

messydesk wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:30 am
For the 88-O VAM 1A, it's no crack (1A1), partial knob (1A2 EDS)


Oops of course. J.B. meant 1880-O, not 1888-O.
When in doubt... don't.

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messydesk
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Re: 1880 P 1A series

Post by messydesk » Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:55 pm

DHalladay wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:56 pm
messydesk wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:30 am
For the 88-O VAM 1A, it's no crack (1A1), partial knob (1A2 EDS)


Oops of course. J.B. meant 1880-O, not 1888-O.
I meant 80, actually. ;)
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DHalladay
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Re: 1880 P 1A series

Post by DHalladay » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:23 pm

Oops on me... but I got the year right. ;)
When in doubt... don't.

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messydesk
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Re: 1880 P 1A series

Post by messydesk » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:25 pm

JohnGoldsmith wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:46 pm
impairedsquirrel wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:07 am
As much as it pains me to say, you pretty much got it right Rabbit.
As for the discrepancy between VW and the registry, VW has to stick to the official listings while the registry can take some liberties. The registry mods apparently felt that the "cracked, but not broke" stage of the v1a was worthy of a spot.
So if I VAM the coin and I have a 1A2 EDS, will it come back as a 1A1 or a 1A2?
If it is slabbed as a 1A1, then I have to change the VAM number and relist it as a 1A2 EDS?
If it slabbed as a 1A2, its not a Top 100.
If I'm sent a coin that is VAM 1A2 EDS, I will label it as such. I have separate entries in my database for both stages of VAM 1A2. PCGS only has "VAM 1A Knobbed 8" in their list of varieties, so they probably want it to match the Top 100 book. I won't speak for ANACS, because JohnR can do that. NGC is anyone's guess. The SSDC registry allows either die stage of VAM 1A2 to be included in a Top 100 set.

This is one of the few cases where it actually makes sense to split a listing into two. The full knob that was listed in the VAM book and Top 100 book should be more clearly delineated from the earlier die stage, especially since the premium is different and people want the full die break on the 8.
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impairedsquirrel
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Re: 1880 P 1A series

Post by impairedsquirrel » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:01 pm

IMO I think it might have been better to call it 1a1 LDS because anything short of the knob isn't nearly as desirable. In the market world a "no crack" would probably carry the same value as a "cracked, not broke".
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

ashmore86
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Re: 1880 P 1A series

Post by ashmore86 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:38 pm

Here's the rub. I had a PCGS 58 that had the crack going all the way into the hair with some displacement. Leroy called this coin the earliest stage of a 1A2. It did not have a fully broken Knob, only the triangular pre-knob. It was LVA's call, The thing is, even though LVA called it 1A2, PCGS WOULD NOT call it a VAM 1A. They called it too early.

I really did not care for them just dismissing Leroy on his own attribution.

Ash

morganman
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Re: 1880 P 1A series

Post by morganman » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:21 pm

Very nice to see ASH H replying to a post, remaining VW active,
as he is so busy running his store and developing a vam price list for
us all. Quite a undertaking in itself

Talk about a absolute quality great person, always helping this sport
I would have told everyone to jump in a creek, LOL way before this LOL
Ash has forgotton more about vams than i will ever know (A Sponge)
Thanks ASH, Your on top of my great list here LOL
:|

JohnGoldsmith
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Re: 1880 P 1A series

Post by JohnGoldsmith » Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:37 pm

ashmore86 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:38 pm
Here's the rub. I had a PCGS 58 that had the crack going all the way into the hair with some displacement. Leroy called this coin the earliest stage of a 1A2. It did not have a fully broken Knob, only the triangular pre-knob. It was LVA's call, The thing is, even though LVA called it 1A2, PCGS WOULD NOT call it a VAM 1A. They called it too early.

I really did not care for them just dismissing Leroy on his own attribution.

Ash
I had a VAM coin and was having trouble with the attribution. I ask PCGS if I had a letter from Mr. LVA would that help.
I was told no because he doesn't work for PCGS and they wanted to know who he was.

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vampicker
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Re: 1880 P 1A series

Post by vampicker » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:17 pm

There's no clearly defined answer here, and splitting the listing has created two grey areas of transition where it had been one before. For me (and ANACS if it crosses my desk) a Knobbed 8 needs a knob on it. The comparison JB made to the Scarface is spot on. I may have done a few pieces similar to what's described in the thread as VAM 1A2 EDS, but they are in the ANACS pop as VAM 1A1. No Knob, no Top 100. An outlined spot where the knob will be with displacement, and it depends on how I'm feeling at the time. This is solid grey and there will never be a black and white answer for the marginal pieces.

Keep that in mind if you run into one of these, even when it has the attribution on the holder.
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JohnGoldsmith
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Re: 1880 P 1A series

Post by JohnGoldsmith » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:13 pm

My personnel listing would be as follows
1A1 no crack
1A2 crack, not a Top 100
1A knobbed 8, Top 100 as it was listed at the start.

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