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HYPOTHETICAL PROOFS

Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 3:33 am
by VAM-PIRE
Greetings. I hope I'm in the proper section for this hypothetical. I am looking at three 1880 Morgan Proofs, all graded by NGC. All three are good looking coins, however, 2 are graded "PF unc details-cleaned", and the other is graded "Proof 61". The 2 details proofs can be had for the same money as the problem free Proof 61. So my quandry is Door #1 or Door #2? Which would you choose, and why? Thanks

Re: HYPOTHETICAL PROOFS

Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 5:36 am
by Bigbub
Skip the details coins when you can. There are times when you can't, but this is not one of them.

Re: HYPOTHETICAL PROOFS

Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 5:50 am
by VAM-PIRE
Thanks Big

Re: HYPOTHETICAL PROOFS

Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 6:04 am
by morganman
Details coins= problem coins, cleaned etc, are generally valued around 50% of a NON DETAILS coin, and
collectors shy away from them when possible

Some Details coins are pretty nice while others are harshly /improperly cleaned and worth much less
if salable period

Re: HYPOTHETICAL PROOFS

Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 1:12 pm
by messydesk
A coin is graded PR61 is usually a problem coin, showing lots of hairlines from historic TLC (i.e., frequent wiping), so there may be little to no difference among the three coins. The safest bet for liquidity is typically to avoid a "details" holder, but they might be nicer looking than the PR61.

Tough call without seeing them all, of course, but I would probably avoid all three and buy something graded at least PR63.

Re: HYPOTHETICAL PROOFS

Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 1:56 pm
by dantvams
As a coin dealer, I agree with JB. Proof 61s are generally “hazy” looking. Proof 63 and preferably 63 Cameo are the first level where proofs really resemble proofs. Of course the price tag will be considerably more but save your money for a real looker. Some 63 Cameos are gorgeous.

Re: HYPOTHETICAL PROOFS

Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 2:12 pm
by DHalladay
Bigbub wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 5:36 am
Skip the details coins when you can. There are times when you can't, but this is not one of them.
Ditto.

Re: HYPOTHETICAL PROOFS

Posted: Wed May 13, 2020 12:08 am
by VAM-PIRE
Thanks guys for all the ideas and info. Sounds like "problem free" is the clear winner so far, but that "unc details-cleaned" sure looks good until viewed @ 40X. There were no pics in my original hypothetical, but as you may have guessed, there was some reality. I made the hypo 1-dimensinal as I had only one quandry at first, problem v no problem. If I pull the trigger, I'll try to get some pics up. Thanks Again

Re: HYPOTHETICAL PROOFS

Posted: Wed May 13, 2020 1:03 am
by CascadeChris
A proof 61 is still a problem coin. In this instance the name of the game is "which is the best looking problem coin given the issues" forget about what the labels say, treat them all just as raw but verified authentic, and choose which has the best eye appeal, the best look -and by that I mean both the best overall look given the type of issues each has as well as.. which looks the most like a proof i.e. which has the most CAM/DCAM frost + most flashy (with as little impairment of the mirrors given the issue) so to speak- etc etc.

choose-wisely.jpg
choose-wisely.jpg (50.05 KiB) Viewed 624 times

Re: HYPOTHETICAL PROOFS

Posted: Wed May 13, 2020 1:04 am
by CascadeChris
and never look at a coin under 40× to determine if you want to purchase it. That's crazy Walt. 🤨

Re: HYPOTHETICAL PROOFS

Posted: Sat May 16, 2020 10:36 pm
by alefzero
Proofs were all the major collectors used to put in the cabinets and they wiped and mishandled (per our current protocols) their coins as a manner of custom. Many proofs have often dismissed problems with fine cleaning lines and similar. When looking at proofs also, especially at certain TPGs, make sure they are indeed proofs. Fortunately, we can attribute the dies. And a graded PF61? If you want in a different service's plastic, be even more careful that it is problem-free. They might sometime give a pass on a raw proof with a little " cabinet friction", but I sense they are pickier when a crossover is submitted.

Re: HYPOTHETICAL PROOFS

Posted: Mon May 18, 2020 8:08 am
by VAM-PIRE
Its my eyesight Chris. You can probably see @ 10X what takes me 40X. It especially helps with those partial inclusions and clashes. Am I cheating?