Can post-mint incuse damage have flow lines?

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ShineOn
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Can post-mint incuse damage have flow lines?

Post by ShineOn » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:54 pm

Just curious.

I was looking at some coins with what appears to be post-mint incuse damage on the obverse, like wide scratches, but if I look at those incuse areas with a digital microscope it sure looks like flow lines are in the incuse areas, along with what appear to be polishing, grinding or filing marks across them.

I thought PMD should be smooth, perhaps with some lines representing the motion of what did the scratching.

Could they be filed-down clash marks? That's assuming that 'an obverse clash is incuse and a reverse clash is raised' is a rule that can be relied on.

The pic shows the incuse areas as darker than the field
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impairedsquirrel
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Re: Can post-mint incuse damage have flow lines?

Post by impairedsquirrel » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:18 pm

Can't see much from that pic, have you ruled out a strike-through? My opinion would be that it depends on what the PMD is and how it happened. If it were smooth and slow developing (like possibly coins settling in a bag) I think it could be possible for the flow lines to remain...
Also, I believe that clash rule is specifically for letter transfer on Morgans be cause of the letters that are known to transfer. A reverse E clash on a Peace dollar, for example, would be incuse. Or if a Morgan was discovered with any of the edge lettering or date transferred that would be incuse on the reverse as well.
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RogerRock
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Re: Can post-mint incuse damage have flow lines?

Post by RogerRock » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:50 pm

ShineOn wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:54 pm
Just curious.

I was looking at some coins with what appears to be post-mint incuse damage on the obverse, like wide scratches, but if I look at those incuse areas with a digital microscope it sure looks like flow lines are in the incuse areas, along with what appear to be polishing, grinding or filing marks across them.

I thought PMD should be smooth, perhaps with some lines representing the motion of what did the scratching.

Could they be filed-down clash marks? That's assuming that 'an obverse clash is incuse and a reverse clash is raised' is a rule that can be relied on.

The pic shows the incuse areas as darker than the field
First time die clashes are always incuse on the coin - obverse or reverse. The only way that a clash mark
can be raised on the coin is from a counter clash. An excellent reference site for die clash information is
MADdieClashes.com
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impairedsquirrel
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Re: Can post-mint incuse damage have flow lines?

Post by impairedsquirrel » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:14 am

RogerRock wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:50 pm
ShineOn wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:54 pm
Just curious.

I was looking at some coins with what appears to be post-mint incuse damage on the obverse, like wide scratches, but if I look at those incuse areas with a digital microscope it sure looks like flow lines are in the incuse areas, along with what appear to be polishing, grinding or filing marks across them.

I thought PMD should be smooth, perhaps with some lines representing the motion of what did the scratching.

Could they be filed-down clash marks? That's assuming that 'an obverse clash is incuse and a reverse clash is raised' is a rule that can be relied on.

The pic shows the incuse areas as darker than the field
First time die clashes are always incuse on the coin - obverse or reverse. The only way that a clash mark
can be raised on the coin is from a counter clash. An excellent reference site for die clash information is
MADdieClashes.com
Don't want to sound contradictory, but this is not true. What the OP said about the obverse and reverse holds true , but only for known letter transfers on Morgan VAMs. Actually, the clash will be the opposite of what the clashed feature is on the flip side of the coin. The E is incuse in LIBERTY, so the clashed E is raised on the reverse. The N is raised on the reverse, so the clashed N is incuse on the obverse, etc.
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RogerRock
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Re: Can post-mint incuse damage have flow lines?

Post by RogerRock » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:18 am

My reference to clash mark transfer was intended for any raised devices on coin which are incuse on the die.
Of course, the opposite is true for LIBERTY on the Morgan coin and die. Thanks for that reminder Rob.
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impairedsquirrel
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Re: Can post-mint incuse damage have flow lines?

Post by impairedsquirrel » Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:42 am

RogerRock wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:18 am
My reference to clash mark transfer was intended for any raised devices on coin which are incuse on the die.
Of course, the opposite is true for LIBERTY on the Morgan coin and die. Thanks for that reminder Rob.
No worries, it's just by happen-chance that all known Morgan letter transfers from the reverse die are raised (motto and MM) and all known from the obverse die are incuse (LIBERTY and designer's initial M)... strange but true, except for *Made in China and possibly Dan Carr's super-clashed examples.
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ShineOn
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Re: Can post-mint incuse damage have flow lines?

Post by ShineOn » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:58 am

Here's a shot of the PMD I'm looking at zoomed out.

I thought it curious that the damage would seem delimited by the die break...

Speaking of which - I just noticed what looks slightly like a welding bead north and south of the break along the front of the neck. Is that normal for average across-the-neck die breaks?
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Re: Can post-mint incuse damage have flow lines?

Post by messydesk » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:57 pm

ShineOn wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:58 am
Here's a shot of the PMD I'm looking at zoomed out.

I thought it curious that the damage would seem delimited by the die break...

Speaking of which - I just noticed what looks slightly like a welding bead north and south of the break along the front of the neck. Is that normal for average across-the-neck die breaks?
Whatever scraped the coin ran into the raised metal from the die break and stopped. The raised bit at the front of the neck is probably from machine doubling, and doesn't have anything to do with the break.
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vampicker
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Re: Can post-mint incuse damage have flow lines?

Post by vampicker » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:20 pm

To answer the original question, PMD absolutely can still have flow lines in it. If there are flow lines present on the unmarred surface, it takes a hard shot to completely wipe them out. Typically, you'd expect disruption rather than obliteration.
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ShineOn
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Re: Can post-mint incuse damage have flow lines?

Post by ShineOn » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:43 am

It would be very bizarre MD, running from the die break to just above the point of the neck at the 9...
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