Is 1900-O v44 really v2A?

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UncleGildy
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Is 1900-O v44 really v2A?

Post by UncleGildy » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:08 am

Anybody else believe the 1900-O VAM44 and 44A are really the VAM-2A1 and 2A2 varieties? I seem to have a 1900-O obsession with 28 29 of them now, so I'd love to help clean up the series if my guess is right here.

You may guess from my avatar, I'm a big fan of the "polished wheat" seen on the 1900-O VAM-2A. It was one of my first VAMs I pulled from the bay years ago.

Somehow I tentatively assigned another 00-O as VAM44 a while back, and today I was reviewing it closer to find what I think is a pair of duplicate listings. Look closely at the details and photos of the 2A1 & 44, and the 2A2 & 44A varieties.

I believe the VAM-44 is the same as the 2A1, and the VAM-44A is actually the 2A2.

Key PUPs are:
  • Identical polishing in wheat,
  • doubling of inside ear is slight (it's there but very slight and easily overlooked),
  • the wing-leg die gouge of the 2A's can be seen in the 44A LFCP,
  • the fact that m/m is borderline High O and could be called either way. Same location in both 2A2 close up as 44A LFCP. 2A2 LFCP looks higher than 44A LFCP! I think it's placed a bit right of center actually.
  • the extra P & RIP breaks of VAM-2A2 are just as prominent in the 44A photos. The LFCP of 2A2 doesn't even have a break on left side of E. Compare them yourself. It's scary how similar they photos are. When viewing individual photos, you have to check the filenames to know which coin you're viewing.
Anyone else think 44 and 44A should be killed, and slight ear doubling be added to the 2A's comments?
Last edited by UncleGildy on Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

RogerRock
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Re: Is 1900-O v44 really v2A?

Post by RogerRock » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:55 am

Another polished wheat ears 1900 o Vam has a similar dilemma! My DC 1900 o Vam 65A resembles
Vam 6. A resubmission of the Vam 65A for review by LVA resulted in no change. LVA said "Doesn't have
O m/m tilted rt of Vam 6."
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UncleGildy
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Re: Is 1900-O v44 really v2A?

Post by UncleGildy » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:27 am

Are you saying the OBV matches the VAM-6 to the last die marker, but you disagree with his m/m location assessment on the 65/A? If the location is different, then it's reasonable to see there's a different pairing of die (classes). It's hard to tell anything from listing pages for lack of photos. Maybe a cell phone pic of the m/m?

Hey - I picked up a PCGS MS64 that I attributed as VAM-6 last Sept. Every attribute and fine die marker matches perfectly. I just checked the ear for you. Yup, there it is - "Slightly doubled ear at right inside"! So I guess it boils down to the reverse.

In the case of the VAM2A and 44, I believe the photos in the listings are enough to reveal everything.

Out of the nearly 1,000 listed 1900-O's under $200 last night, I could only find one 2A2. It's the overpriced one I bookmarked weeks ago. This morning before I went into work... he won - I overpaid. Hop to see it Thursday, and I hope to see those breaks /die chips in hand after all this (I already have two 2A1's).

RogerRock
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Re: Is 1900-O v44 really v2A?

Post by RogerRock » Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:10 am

Obverse die markers on Vam 65A match those on Vam 6. Reverse die marker at eagle's leg are also
exact match. However, the O mintmark on my Vam 65 really does not show definitive right tilt that is
pictured on the Vam 6 page. 1900 O Vam 65A Discovery Piece has been graded MS 62 ANACS
A prominent scuff mark across the cheek from under the eye limits the grade of this otherwise 63-64
white specimen!
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UncleGildy
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Re: Is 1900-O v44 really v2A?

Post by UncleGildy » Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:23 am

So then it sounds like a different die class for the reverse. The mint mark location is a key defining part of what constitutes a die class.

I can't explain how the heavy polishing lines die marker in the TF, by the left leg can be there on a coin with a different mint mark location though. UGH. Can anyone shed some light on this?

fwiw - mine shows the heavy polishing lines too, but the mint mark placement is identical to the v6 photo.

RogerRock
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Re: Is 1900-O v44 really v2A?

Post by RogerRock » Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:47 am

Also noted on the Vam 65A reverse in LVA attribution are displaced field breaks above ATE and UNITED.
This LDS progression was the reason for my submission to LVA!
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UncleGildy
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Re: Is 1900-O v44 really v2A?

Post by UncleGildy » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:06 am

Sounds like, other than that eerily similar identical die marker of heavy polishing lines, there's no mystery left to solve here ;). You've got a 2× discovery here :D.

So what say you Roger - are those photos and observations in my bullets above enough to convince you the 2A1 /2 and 44 /A VAMs are the same variety?

Anyone else?

All I have is one 2A2, and a couple 2A1's to send Leroy. But the ear doubling is there and int marks appear to match the 44's. Sure would be nice to get a kill and do a little cleanup of the 1900-O series. I'll send them this march if you feel it's warranted.

RogerRock
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Re: Is 1900-O v44 really v2A?

Post by RogerRock » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:17 am

Vam 44 and Vam 2A look very similar to me. As you know, Leroy is the final solution! Sending in
comparison pieces always seems to expedite a resolution. Good Luck!! DUPLICATE VAMS NEED to be
ELIMINATED
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UncleGildy
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Re: Is 1900-O v44 really v2A?

Post by UncleGildy » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:22 am

I suspect there's not much interest in this question after all, but I just received the 2A2 wannabe, so I felt obliged to update the post. That's right, I said wannabe - there were no breaks (chips) at I & B, nor was there a significant break on the left side of E :( It's a intermediate die state between 2A1 and 2A2.

I am still convinced 2A1=44 and 2A2=44A. In fact, if you look at the LFCP for 2A2, has doesn't even have a break on the left side of the E. Caution when viewing the close-up of the 44A break at E - I'm pretty sure that's just PMD. The listed die break is on the top left of the E. I could be wrong though - it does happen (quite often actually :shock:).

My intermediate state Morgan does not have the crack extending from the hair above the forehead, which is both LFCP of 2A2 and 44A. (The v44A LFCP is a soft colored photo - you need to desaturate, and adjust the gamma to see it clearly.)

It has the breaks between E ∙ P (which I suspect are really just die chips). It has a really nice break on left side of the R, but none of the "breaks" (chips) along the cracks that extent from I and B. If I called the chips breaks as they appear in the photos, my coin would have the E ∙ P and R breaks. (The R is the only break that is a short heavy break like the E rather than a chip). All the other markers are there and very distinct. The slight doubling in the right inside of the ear is there too.

From the photos on the four pages and my three coins in hand, I can say the progression of the cracks, breaks and chips would be as follows:
  1. cracks from E∙P and R I B
  2. Break (chips) between E∙P
  3. Break on side of R
  4. Break (chip) near B
  5. Crack from hair above forehead
  6. Break on left side of E, AND Break (chip) near I
There's no way for me to determine if the break (chip) near I came before of after the heavy break on the left side of the E or not, so I combined them.

Calling all VAM experts - Is this analysis sound?
Is it worth spending the bucks to ship Leroy 3 more coins (in March) to see if the 44's should be killed?

Thanks,
John

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Bigbub
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Re: Is 1900-O v44 really v2A?

Post by Bigbub » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:55 am

The VAM 44 listing was a twofer from a submittal of the VAM44A by Logan McKechnie in 2004. At that time there was no VAM 2A2 listing, just the 2A which was listed way back when by Leroy himself, hence the low VAM number. So Leroy listed both the VAM 44 and the VAM 44A at the same time. In past years, when I was involved with doing the 1900 O die study, I saw the same thing you did, a duplicate listing. Then in 2015, Nathaniel Mailliard (Metalencephalon) submitted a high quality coin and received the 2A2 listing, which was actually the VAM44A. Nate was such an enthusiastic vammer I didn't have the heart to tell him or anyone otherwise. He has since passed, so no harm to say it now.

Since that time, I have acquired the original VAM44A discovery coin in its small ANACS discovery holder. It is a net VF 30 details coin and yes, it is the same coin as the VAM 2A2.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Is 1900-O v44 really v2A?

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:27 am

Die studies folks, die studies.

Listen to BigBub. He has been studying the 00-Os for a long time. With the mintage as high as it was for this series, it is inevitable that duplicate listings/ different die marriages/different die states/different die stages would mess up the listings. Take it from someone who also does die studies.

As I always say, and nobody essentially follows my advice (some do), surround your coins with others to tell yourself and Leroy a story. Don't just send onsies to Leroy.

Die studies folks, die studies.

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UncleGildy
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Re: Is 1900-O v44 really v2A?

Post by UncleGildy » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:08 am

Thanks for contributing to the 44=2A post! And especially the neat Nathaniel Mailliard (Metalencephalon) story. I see his contributions on VAMWorld a lot!

fwiw - I finally got my 2A2 last Friday. Swing and a miss several times, but this makes three 2A1's and one 2A2. The 2A2 is slabbed MS64 from the Gene L. Henry / Great Northwest Collection (An SSDC top pop too 8-))

BigBub - thanks again for sharing your knowledge here, and all your die study efforts.

John

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