new addition to 1921-P 3A1A-3A1B-3A2-3A3-3A4 family

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
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DHalladay
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new addition to 1921-P 3A1A-3A1B-3A2-3A3-3A4 family

Post by DHalladay » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:08 am

Here are two new scribbles shots for VAM 3AH (it really is the same coin, changing the light source point direction made a huge difference!):

38054503 scribbles 1.jpg
38054503 scribbles 1.jpg (232.94 KiB) Viewed 1469 times
38054503 scribbles 2.jpg
38054503 scribbles 2.jpg (204.57 KiB) Viewed 1469 times

And in addition to having the die scratch from the wreath to the reverse left star, my coin has this very cool line of acid drips (??) that extend from the rim almost to the A in AMERICA:

38054503 acid drips A.jpg
38054503 acid drips A.jpg (202.72 KiB) Viewed 1469 times
Last edited by DHalladay on Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When in doubt... don't.

weth
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Re: New pixs for 1921-P VAM 3AH (and a surprise)

Post by weth » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:33 am

Wait...didn't you just kill VAM 3AH, showing that it's part of the 3A family?

http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... 70c2fca11c

DHalladay
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Re: New pixs for 1921-P VAM 3AH (and a surprise)

Post by DHalladay » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:46 am

weth wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:33 am
Wait...didn't you just kill VAM 3AH, showing that it's part of the 3A family?

Oh wow! How quickly I forget. Thank you for that reminder!
But we now have a can of worms.

The EDS coin I sent to LVA that caused the de-listing of 3AH has no scratch from the wreath to the left star. He split the old VAM 3A1, and called the no-tailbar version VAM 3A1A.

That made the old VAM 3A1 with the tailbar VAM 3A1B, I have two examples of that and they also have the line of acid drips (??) almost reaching the A in AMERICA.

In fact, all of the 3A2-3-4 coins have the line of acid drips (??), although it gets faint by the 3A3 stage and very faint at 3A4.

Now here's the fun part: The coin I posted above slots between 3A1A and 3A1B this way:

1. 3A1A – no wreath-to-star scratch, no line of acid drips, no tailbar
2. this new coin – has wreath-to-star scratch, has a bold line of acid drips, no tailbar
3. 3A1B – has wreath-to-star scratch, has line of acid drips, has tailbar
When in doubt... don't.

weth
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Re: New pixs for 1921-P VAM 3AH (and a surprise)

Post by weth » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:20 pm

I'm gonna laugh if we get to differentiating by adding yet another suffix...

These two no-tailbar might be called 3A1A1 and 3A1A2, perhaps?

DHalladay
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Re: New pixs for 1921-P VAM 3AH (and a surprise)

Post by DHalladay » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:52 pm

weth wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:20 pm
I'm gonna laugh if we get to differentiating by adding yet another suffix...

These two no-tailbar might be called 3A1A1 and 3A1A2, perhaps?

Or maybe LVA will revise the revision and go with 3A1A, 3A1B, and 3A1C
When in doubt... don't.

DHalladay
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Re: New pixs for 1921-P VAM 3AH (and a surprise)

Post by DHalladay » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:46 pm

Here's a visual look at the difference between 3A1A, the new 'tweener' coin, and 3A1B:

all features small.jpg
all features small.jpg (265.17 KiB) Viewed 1431 times

It looks like the gouge from the wreath to the left star, and the line of acid drips (??) from the rim to A in AMERICA happened between the 3A1A and 3A1B stages.
When in doubt... don't.

weth
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Re: new addition to 1921-P 3A1A-3A1B-3A2-3A3-3A4 family

Post by weth » Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:28 pm

DHalladay wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:46 pm
It looks like the gouge from the wreath to the left star, and the line of acid drips (??) from the rim to A in AMERICA happened between the 3A1A and 3A1B stages.
...and if the wreath gouge and the acid drips didn't happen at the same time, that's yet ANOTHER potential stage.

Such a deep rabbit hole...

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alefzero
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Re: new addition to 1921-P 3A1A-3A1B-3A2-3A3-3A4 family

Post by alefzero » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:38 am

Confusing is the "VAM 3A1c does not have a gouge under the eagle's tail feathers:" note on the image on the page here. Doesn't seem right to me. Is that really for VAM-3A1b? Or is there a VAM-3A1d? Something needs to cover the coins with the tail feather gouge but nothing at the R or L of DOLLAR. I am pretty sure it is the VAM-3A1c (former VAM-3A1), but will at least ask to confirm this.

Mhomei
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Re: new addition to 1921-P 3A1A-3A1B-3A2-3A3-3A4 family

Post by Mhomei » Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:06 am

So what do I need to do to get my
3A1AA2C3B4 Attributed?

Great photo Dennis

Geseas
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Re: new addition to 1921-P 3A1A-3A1B-3A2-3A3-3A4 family

Post by Geseas » Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:28 pm

Mhomei wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:06 am

Great photo Dennis
I would like to second that ..and learning to boot!

thanks

DHalladay
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Re: new addition to 1921-P 3A1A-3A1B-3A2-3A3-3A4 family

Post by DHalladay » Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:10 pm

OK, let's review this again... slowly. And we'll start with the bottom row of photos in the group seen above.

The bottom row of photos is the old VAM 3A1.
– It has a gouge from the left wreath to the left star.
– It has a line of pitting from the 1st A in America to the rim.
– And it has a "tailbar"
This coin's designation was changed to 3A1B when I discovered 3A1A.

The top row of photos is the new VAM 3A1A.
– It does not have a gouge from the left wreath to the left star.
– It does not have a line of pitting from the 1st A in America to the rim.
– It does not have a "tailbar".
In short, it is an early die state coin that has none of the key markers that identify the 3A1-2-3-4 series so easily. Pretty much the only way to attribute VAM 3A1A is via scribbles. As a result, I wish you good luck trying to find one.

The middle row of photos is the new VAM 3A1C.
– It does have a gouge from the left wreath to the left star.
– It does have a line of pitting from the 1st A in America to the rim.
– But it does not have a "tailbar".
Thus, it was made between 3A1A and 3A1B.

In terms of die progression, we now know that the 3A1-2-3-4 family started out with no big markers, just scribbles. The gouge from the left wreath to the star, and pitting from A to the rim came next. Who knows, it's possible there's a coin out there that has a gouge but no pitting, or vice versa. Wouldn't that be fun! The tailbar PUP came last.

Thus, the A-B-C numbering extension sequence we have for these 3 coins is not in the same order as the coins were made, and that's a pain in the butt. But as Leroy said in his letter to me, A and B were already assigned.
When in doubt... don't.

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alefzero
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Re: new addition to 1921-P 3A1A-3A1B-3A2-3A3-3A4 family

Post by alefzero » Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:10 am

That explains it. So 3A1b it is, the sequence being a -> c -> b.

Geseas
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Re: new addition to 1921-P 3A1A-3A1B-3A2-3A3-3A4 family

Post by Geseas » Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:27 pm

DHalladay wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:08 am
Here are two new scribbles shots for VAM 3AH (it really is the same coin, changing the light source point direction made a huge difference!):


38054503 scribbles 1.jpg

38054503 scribbles 2.jpg


And in addition to having the die scratch from the wreath to the reverse left star, my coin has this very cool line of acid drips (??) that extend from the rim almost to the A in AMERICA:


38054503 acid drips A.jpg
Great site here.

I am a little embarrassed to admit that I am still back at your first two photos on this informative post. Light Point Source Direction. Did make a huge difference. Are you sure you want to say those first two photos here are of the same coin? I have been looking at those two photos for days now. I factored in 'when in doubt dont ' also.

thanks Dennis

@DHalladay
The viewing of attributions on line and that viewing tool you use to do so... Important considerations. I can't figure out how to use what I have now, properly. That's the fun, trying to figure it out!
Last edited by Geseas on Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

DHalladay
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Re: new addition to 1921-P 3A1A-3A1B-3A2-3A3-3A4 family

Post by DHalladay » Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:54 pm

Yes, those first 2 photos really and truly are of the same coin. They are extreme examples of how and why scribbles photos are not only hard to take, but can be so difficult to "read" when you look at on-line attribution examples. That is why I often like to post multiple shots when they highlight different things.
When in doubt... don't.

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alefzero
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Re: new addition to 1921-P 3A1A-3A1B-3A2-3A3-3A4 family

Post by alefzero » Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:22 pm

Dennis,

It looks like the pages on here have 3A1b and 3A1c reversed. I did not get an update this year; so I do not have the listings as they stand. OTOH, I have one I want to list for sale but want to make sure it is correct and agrees with the listings, official and here. Mine has the tailfeather gouge and I have down as 3A1b, but fits the description in the listings here as 3A1c.

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