1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

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Prider358
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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by Prider358 » Thu May 30, 2019 6:09 pm

What about 1A3 EDS. The die crack through Dollar and MERIC of AMERICA seem to match up???????

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LorenAlbert
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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by LorenAlbert » Thu May 30, 2019 6:38 pm

Prider358 wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 6:09 pm
What about 1A3 EDS. The die crack through Dollar and MERIC of AMERICA seem to match up???????
Cracks routinely transcend attributions. This is one reason I suggested that cracks are poisonous when treated as stage markers. Especially when working from photographs. As suggested by a few others, a photograph to verify the absence, or presence, of a gouge at the A of STATES may prove helpful.

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impairedsquirrel
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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by impairedsquirrel » Thu May 30, 2019 8:58 pm

Look, Ant... er... Prider, you're way over thinking it. The VAM-1a progression is listed for:
1a1-Strong clashed E with none of the following features
1a4-Strong clashed E with the gouges in TAT of states (which is why folks have been asking for a pic of that area)
1a2-Strong clashed E with a "mound" (sunken die) along the nose bridge clash in front of the eye socket clash
1a3-Strong clashed E with the mound now looking some what jagged (because the die broke)

You found the E, and you don't have a smooth or jagged mound (Refer to the 1a2 and 1a3 pages to see what the mound looks like for each.), so the only thing left to check is whether you have the die gouge in TAT of STATES. If it's there 1a4, if it's not 1a1. Anything else (including your die crack) is just noise in this particular progression. ;)
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lured_in_again
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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by lured_in_again » Thu May 30, 2019 9:26 pm

There is another stage which LVA will not break this VAM down into.... the R gouge under TRUST and the beveling under the denticles (listed on the 1A2 stage)on the obverse top occur after the initial clash and prior to the 1A4 gouge and polishing event.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Thu May 30, 2019 10:07 pm

This is a classic example of why I have advocated for the EDS, MDS, LDS designations so we don't get into "stages as VAM listings". A 1A has the strong clashed BER. That is all one should need to know.

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TheYokel
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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by TheYokel » Thu May 30, 2019 10:44 pm

lured_in_again wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 9:26 pm
There is another stage which LVA will not break this VAM down into.... the R gouge under TRUST and the beveling under the denticles (listed on the 1A2 stage)on the obverse top occur after the initial clash and prior to the 1A4 gouge and polishing event.
Yep. I have one. That's my NGC "1A2" we know is a 1A1 because of the forehead clash. It *does* have the 1A4 R gouge. No TAT i don't think tho. Not at the house to look...
"There is no E"...

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lured_in_again
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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by lured_in_again » Thu May 30, 2019 10:52 pm

Yokel... the R gouge does not make it VAM 1A4 - that feature shows up LDS of 1A1........ VAM 1A4 requires the TAT gouges. This VAM is kind of like the "scarface".... it either has a scar across the face or it doesn't.. or it falls into one of 10 stages of that VAM.

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TheYokel
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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by TheYokel » Fri May 31, 2019 1:35 am

lured_in_again wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 10:52 pm
Yokel... the R gouge does not make it VAM 1A4 - that feature shows up LDS of 1A1........ VAM 1A4 requires the TAT gouges. This VAM is kind of like the "scarface".... it either has a scar across the face or it doesn't.. or it falls into one of 10 stages of that VAM.
I was told it was the polishing that designated the 1A4, not the gouge?

To clarify: i thought i remember being told that the polishing had been seen on a coin without the gouge in STATES. That the polishing designated the transition to the 1A4, but that most showed the gouge.
"There is no E"...

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twohawks
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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by twohawks » Fri May 31, 2019 3:42 am

Folks the Gouge under the R in TRUST is know and I have had all of them over Leroy's home. The V-1a1 with out the gouge under the R is a V1a1 EDS and with its a V 1a1 it is considered to small a detail to list. Leroy has had it sent to him more times than I have fingers! PRE Leroy: Don't send them to him, as its a waist of his time.

He has seen my V1a1 EDS in AU 58 My V1a1 in MS-63 My V 1a4 in 63 my V1a2 EDS in 58 and My V1a4 in 55 all at the same time and we talked about the progression for 1/2 hour last time I was over.

I agree that the gouge under the R is too small and that the EDS type is a somewhat more difficult type to find in grade. Just think of it like the 1882 O/S and the O/S EDS type VAMs

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Prider358
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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by Prider358 » Fri May 31, 2019 1:33 pm

Hi everyone, thanks for your time and feedback, it's more than appreciated all the help for a 'NEWBEE' on this site. Here are some more photo's, not the best pic's. Will have to upgrade equipment before I do any more posts, thanks all.
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gpy28obv1891oe-31-5-19.jpg
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Prider358
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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by Prider358 » Fri May 31, 2019 1:40 pm

In the tail feathers you can see the 'T' and also the 'L' under certain lighting conditions.
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gpy32rev1891oe-31-5-19.jpg
gpy32rev1891oe-31-5-19.jpg (126.08 KiB) Viewed 1416 times

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Prider358
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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by Prider358 » Fri May 31, 2019 1:42 pm

Once again I thank everyone for their experience and time. Gotta love that 'MORGAN DOLLAR'.

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Prider358
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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by Prider358 » Fri May 31, 2019 5:22 pm

I think this coin is between a '1A' and a '1A1'.

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impairedsquirrel
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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by impairedsquirrel » Fri May 31, 2019 7:26 pm

There is actually no such thing as a "1a" (unless you work for some scum-sucking anti-VAM grading company, like, won't name any names, but their initials are P.C.G.S.). Once a VAM listing is separated into stages (when the 1a2 was listed in this case), there are only the new stages listed. What that means in simple terms is you have a VAM-1a1. The only options are 1a1, 1a2, 1a3 and 1a4... the generic "1a" VAM no longer exists. Hope that makes sense?
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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Prider358
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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by Prider358 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:30 am

VAM 1A1 it is then, settled, will put this one to bed. Thanks impairedsquirrel and others for your help.

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Prider358
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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by Prider358 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:43 pm

Does anyone think this coin would make a MS or AU????

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Prider358
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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by Prider358 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:55 pm

Can't believe this post is 2 years old. :lol:

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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by JASONKFLO » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:07 pm

Prider358 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:55 pm
Can't believe this post is 2 years old. :lol:
Did you grade it? Looks Au-55 to me
Jason Floyd
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Prider358
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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by Prider358 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:40 am

Hi JASONKFLO, no i didn't get it graded, just put it to bed. :lol:
When i can produce better upgraded photo's then i will repost. :D

blh74
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Re: 1891 0. Clashed 'E'. VAM 1A..?

Post by blh74 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:29 am

Prider358 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:55 pm
Can't believe this post is 2 years old. :lol:
Shows a lot of interest in that VAM.

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