Hmmmmmmmmm.....

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CascadeChris
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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by CascadeChris » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:06 am

twohawks wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:28 pm
I have had the E Clash scratch on my retina for some time now. The location is everything! the tilt and angle have to be dead on, and if you have to have more than 2 photos showing it.....then its not present. if you only use 1 photo and put 3 arrows pointing at what your talking about its "REALLY NOT THERE"
Russ, do you have any E DC's to your name?
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blh74
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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by blh74 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:38 am

I say keep looking for the "E" spot. Giggity!

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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by twohawks » Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:58 am

Yes I have the 1888O VAM-1a1 that's the no break E Clash as well as the 1891 O VAM-1a4 and the 1886 O VAM-1a2 BER and the T clash in the Hair vee. So to your question "Yes" I have 3 of them! :D

The single clashed VAM-1a1 currently has 2 known MS examples and the Late die state VAM-1a2 multi or 7 clashed type has 2 known MS examples known. The VAM 1a2 represents about 97% of all the 1886 O E clashes I have seen. with the single clashed type having a clear and "Bold E" not found on the clash over clashed types.

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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by CascadeChris » Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:05 am

twohawks wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:58 am
Yes I have the 1888O VAM-1a1 that's the no break E Clash as well as the 1891 O VAM-1a4 and the 1886 O VAM-1a2 BER and the T clash in the Hair vee. So to your question "Yes" I have 3 of them! :D

The single clashed VAM-1a1 currently has 2 known MS examples and the Late die state VAM-1a2 multi or 7 clashed type has 2 known MS examples known. The VAM 1a2 represents about 97% of all the 1886 O E clashes I have seen. with the single clashed type having a clear and "Bold E" not found on the clash over clashed types.
Figured... You suckEE suckEE! 😁😎
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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by TheYokel » Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:26 am

Not going to start a new thread... Just going to leave this here.

I figure people will see it if it's worthy of attention.... And yes, it's a different coin... But yes, it would also still be a brand new E. Where's Willy Wonka when I need him...
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twohawks
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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by twohawks » Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:43 am

Post Mint damage 100% If it was the trumpet of the E its facing the wrong way by about 80 degrees and if its the backbone its off by about 140 degrees. A good way to look at where and how an E Clash will look is this.

Take a photo of the reverse of an 1891 O V-1a1 Look at where the neck clash in relation to the clash rotation. If you draw a line from the center of the coin to the lower E leg you will have a centering point. When you find other clashed coins compare the clash location. If the clash is rotated more to the N of In you can now imagine where a clashed E would need to be. But you must Remember that the rotation is in an arch.


While doing this will not give you an exact spot that a true overlay will do, you will find that it will kill 99.5% of what you are seeing as an E. The mint did not set up the presses with 160 degree with 60 of the dies being off set as well. If what you think is a leg or a trumpet of an "E" is pointing in a direction other than the 1891 O V-1a1 or close to it, its PMD "Post Mint Damage" every time.

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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by TheYokel » Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:57 am

twohawks wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:43 am
Post Mint damage 100% If it was the trumpet of the E its facing the wrong way by about 80 degrees and if its the backbone its off by about 140 degrees. A good way to look at where and how an E Clash will look is this.

Take a photo of the reverse of an 1891 O V-1a1 Look at where the neck clash in relation to the clash rotation. If you draw a line from the center of the coin to the lower E leg you will have a centering point. When you find other clashed coins compare the clash location. If the clash is rotated more to the N of In you can now imagine where a clashed E would need to be. But you must Remember that the rotation is in an arch.


While doing this will not give you an exact spot that a true overlay will do, you will find that it will kill 99.5% of what you are seeing as an E. The mint did not set up the presses with 160 degree with 60 of the dies being off set as well. If what you think is a leg or a trumpet of an "E" is pointing in a direction other than the 1891 O V-1a1 or close to it, its PMD "Post Mint Damage" every time.
My 91-O is at NGC so i don't have it in hand to compare angles of the E, and my 83-O isn't strong enough to really do much research on. Just going based on pictures at the moment.

So it's too horizontal? Should be angled higher? As far as i could estimate from 89 and 91 it was at the correct angle... Grrr.

Thanks for the info. When i get my coins back from NGC I'll have a strong E back in hand to do more hands-on comparisons... Thanks twohawks :)

Edit: you said the mark is off rotation by about 80 degrees. So it should basically be almost vertical? The mark up below the first TF? This one... Just trying to break bad habits... I thought this one was on point angle and position-wise :x

Uggggh. We're going to get this to sink in one day i swear...

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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by TheYokel » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:58 am

Raybob15239 wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:00 am
Ant, you should get credit for one kill for the duplicate listing you found on the 1889 1D1 and the 1G. Chiefret. was the discoverer of the 1G. We met up at the ANA show to examine our two discovery pieces and we confirmed that his 2017 1G Discovery was the same as my 2007 1D discovery(now 1D1).

I admit that I have questioned why you would post so many photos, but I saw it as rookie exuberance and never suspected malice of any kind. Finding that first discovery and getting that monkey off your back will be big for you. I hope it comes sooner rather than later. But I do agree that at some point, when you have VAMPicker and Messydesk telling you the same thing, it is pretty much guaranteed to be exactly what they are saying.

Keep looking, Ant. You will get that discovery monkey off your back. ;)
A kill before a discovery... I can't do anything correctly :?

On the bright side, I've collected the entire progression of clashes for this die pair (and a couple I haven't seen listed) looking for my E... So at least I might get some decent research out of this lol. :lol:
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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by TheYokel » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:47 am

Without my 91-O I can only try to use what you are teaching me by looking at overlays.

I'm looking at the neck/wing line on this overlay and where the E would be.

If my neck/wing line is over here in the N itself... Would this even have a shot at being an E? In my mind, the E would move over under the tailfeather with the neck clash moving closer the the N?

I'm trying to take something away from all this to hopefully cut down on future "Is this it?!" questions. But based on the clash locations, would this even be worth asking about? If I can figure out this alignment thing, it'll be one step closer to fixing my mistakes on seeing these things that don't exist...
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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by impairedsquirrel » Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:09 pm

86-P?
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by TheYokel » Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:15 pm

impairedsquirrel wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:09 pm
86-P?
No sir ^.^

Thank you for the reply Mr Squirrel. Have you hunted big clashes as well? :)
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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by twohawks » Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:55 pm

Still NO E CLASH the angle and location and direction are all wrong.

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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by TheYokel » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:17 pm

twohawks wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:55 pm
Still NO E CLASH the angle and location and direction are all wrong.
Yes sir, I'm just trying to wrap my head around the *why* of the positioning being wrong. I'm notoriously bad for my understanding of clash patterns. In my mind, the shifting of the face and neck clash to the left would also shift the E clash were it to be present?

Looking at the overlay the face/nose clash touch the wreath leaves and the E is also more toward the the wreath under the tailfeathers. If my face is shifted left, shouldn't the E also shift left with it?

That's the type of thinking my head is having a hard time absorbing...
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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by impairedsquirrel » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:39 pm

No, I’m not particularly interested in clashes...
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by TheYokel » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:06 pm

impairedsquirrel wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:39 pm
No, I’m not particularly interested in clashes...
Dang. I think my first Morgan being a bearded eagle sent be down a dark path.

Oh, i finally got a better angle of whatever it is sitting under the first/second tailfeathers. These phantom markings are driving me insane. Look at that dang thing... That's just evil...
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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by impairedsquirrel » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:19 pm

A: Read your tag line again Ant
B: Why don’t we have sarcasm font?
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by TheYokel » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:27 pm

impairedsquirrel wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:19 pm
A: Read your tag line again Ant
B: Why don’t we have sarcasm font?
I normally use the sarcastic face. Would read like:

Read your tag line again, Ant :roll:
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CascadeChris
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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by CascadeChris » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:38 pm

I suggest you forget about clashed VAMs for a while, hammer down on the basics then come back to the clashes. That's not to say dont pull the trigger if you see a wicked clasher you want to buy, but just put it away and come back to them as a whole. You're expending way too much energy that you should be using to learn the basics. Once you have them down then start educating yourself on the VAM niche that interests you.
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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by impairedsquirrel » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:58 pm

Hehe, then I guess my comment would be:
No, I’m not particularly interested in clashes. :roll:
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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Re: It's Finally In-Hand... Is It a New E Discovery?... Muahaha...

Post by iwillbenice » Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:22 pm

No E or any other type clashed E by me.Maybe a dumb E. :P

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