Possible 1925-S VAM 3 but the markers do not match exactly?

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zoso6982
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Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:40 pm

Possible 1925-S VAM 3 but the markers do not match exactly?

Post by zoso6982 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:26 am

Recently got a new 1925-S peace dollar for the collection and immediately noticed a die crack on the obverse. Decided to pull up the vam world diagnostics to see what I could find. This coin has most of the markers of the vam 3 for the date, but not everything lines up. It has very rusted dies, both on the obverse and reverse. Heavy file marks all along the rim around the date, Liberty, states of america, and even in the tiara itself which is a bit strange. There are two things that don't seem to be in line with the standard vam-3 of this date. The first part, is that there is a die chip below the R in LIBERTY on the obverse. The second, and more important factor, is that the die crack on the obverse does not line up as it is shown on the vam world page, or with any other photos of a vam-3 that has been attributed before. I checked photos both on vam world, and PCGS Coinfacts of attributed coins.

Obverse/Reverse of the full coin. https://imgur.com/a/dNrzDn2

Die crack of my coin (Notice that it does not touch the O and goes through the bottom part of the G). https://imgur.com/a/QuVfZhH

Die crack that should be on a vam 3 (notice where it passes through on the O and then through the middle part of the G). http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... 3crack.jpg

Proper die markers on my coin. https://imgur.com/a/8qXeHa1

Die chip under R of LIBERTY. https://imgur.com/a/NJRRAXh

Die file lines along the rim, date, Liberty, states of , and in the tiara. https://imgur.com/a/spP44l0

colwillys
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Re: Possible 1925-S VAM 3 but the markers do not match exactly?

Post by colwillys » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:49 pm

I say it is NOT a VAM 3 .

zoso6982
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Re: Possible 1925-S VAM 3 but the markers do not match exactly?

Post by zoso6982 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:23 pm

Maybe a new discovery piece then? Just odd how it has some of the markers but a separate die crack

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Raybob15239
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Re: Possible 1925-S VAM 3 but the markers do not match exactly?

Post by Raybob15239 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:04 pm

You need to eliminate all of the known VAMs. Once you do that, then logically, your coin would represent an unknown die pair and would be a candidate for a road trip to Sidney.

There are only 27 known VAMs for 1925-S. I would start at VAM 1 and work through the entire list comparing your coin to the descriptions and the plate photos.
I swear, someday I will learn how to grade Peace Dollars!

zoso6982
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Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:40 pm

Re: Possible 1925-S VAM 3 but the markers do not match exactly?

Post by zoso6982 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:56 am

Finished doing that this evening, I do not believe it matches up with any other of the die pairings or vam’s listed other than the partial of vam 3. I also did forget to mention that the talon seems to be doubled, but it is very likely to be mechanical doubling as it seems a bit flattened and at a different height. But again the main things that don’t match is the die crack on the neck, and the die chip below the R in LIBERTY. https://imgur.com/a/to8CQiY

colwillys
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Re: Possible 1925-S VAM 3 but the markers do not match exactly?

Post by colwillys » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:16 pm

After reviewing your coin , I say VAM 1 . What did I know , I do mostly PEACE DOLLARS .

zoso6982
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Re: Possible 1925-S VAM 3 but the markers do not match exactly?

Post by zoso6982 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:27 pm

colwillys wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:16 pm
After reviewing your coin , I say VAM 1 . What did I know , I do mostly PEACE DOLLARS .
And I respect that and I appreciate the comment :) sorry I’m new to vam’s just wondering how it can be a normal die state when there are all these markers on it that wouldn’t be on the normal die?

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Raybob15239
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Re: Possible 1925-S VAM 3 but the markers do not match exactly?

Post by Raybob15239 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:39 pm

@zoso@zoso6982

Not all cracks are worthy of getting a designation. There has to be a break with displacement. Yours is just a crack, but there is a spot just off the neck in the field that might be more than just a crack. Cracks can be and often are a die marker for VAMs designated for other features. Also, keep in mind that there can be (and usually are) multiple die pairs that make up VAM 1. Some of these may have interesting cracks, or even clashes (single, short spike), but they are still just VAM 1.

With respect to your coin, the gouge/chip on the W is interesting because it matches the W on the coin on the VAM 3 page. It also appears on the LFCP coin on the VAM 3 page. However, although it is shown in the notes on the page as a secondary die marker, the small gouge/chip is not listed by LVA as a feature of the 3/3A. It is entirely possible that the feature is a hub issue that appears on many coins. It is not listed on any of the known VAMs. I would venture to say that the feature is too small to warrant a listing or even a revision. It is just a secondary die marker.

The most telling feature of your coin, though, is the die crack. It does not match the crack on the 3/3A. Don't get me wrong; it is close, but if you look closely with enlarged images of your coin and the VAM 3 coin from the page side by side, you will notice that while the crack on your coin is similarly located on the neck, as yours enters the field, there is a widening of the crack above the left side of the 9 that does not appear on the 3 and your crack descends from this spot towards the rim, while the 3 crack takes a more level path across under IN GOD.

I don't see a die chip under the R in LIBERTY in the picture you list. There looks to be a small hit, but it appears to be PMD, not a chip.

The file lines are a good secondary marker, but they do not (in my opinion) warrant listing. If the rims were beveled with more significant file lines (that could be seen without magnification) they would be listable. There are several 1925 P VAMs with beveled rims. Take a look at 25-P VAM 1N to see what I mean.

Regarding the reverse, in my opinion, the doubling on your eagle appears to be more "shelf-like", and therefore strike or mechanical doubling. I could be completely wrong on this, though, as I was primarily focused on Morgan VAMs and am now just venturing into the Darkside.

If you want to be sure, and would like a really authoritative second opinion, I would recommend sending it on a trip to Variety Slabbing Service. It is run by @messydesk desk and he is very, very good at this. The cost is very reasonable and you get a nifty holder as well.
I swear, someday I will learn how to grade Peace Dollars!

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