Help with date placement

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
Post Reply
demetri
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:45 am

Help with date placement

Post by demetri » Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:34 pm

I am studyiong date placements and could use some help from a more knowlegeable member.

While studying up about date placement, I ran into two 1900 P's that looked like far dates. Weird that no far dates are noted so, I began thinking maybe Im wrong and went back for more but the dates do look far compared to the normal c3 dates shown on listings and to confuse me more, the attribution guide says C3 is in the center of 3rd denticle is normal?

VAM-4 Low Date shows date farther right but not quite half way mark on denticle 3, why is this not considered a far date?

So exactly where is normal date for a C3 1900P??

Can anyone help me understand where Im going wrong?

Here is the date that Im questioning
DSC00385.JPG
DSC00385.JPG (149.78 KiB) Viewed 240 times
DSC00388.JPG
DSC00388.JPG (172.75 KiB) Viewed 240 times

MarkyB
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:50 pm
Location: Nebraska

Re: Help with date placement

Post by MarkyB » Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:18 pm

You've exposed a bit of a conundrum in this hobby. Normal is a range more than a set distance. I looked at the 1900-P VAMs and it seems the near date is less than 2 denticles. The normal range seems to be 2.0ish-2.6ish. I've seen a lot of listings where I thought a date guide mixed in a near with the normals or vice-versa. IMO, it's not an exact science but just a guide to get you closer to the correct answer. It's the same with slanted dates or the position of MM.

User avatar
ljs123
Posts: 1703
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:16 pm

Re: Help with date placement

Post by ljs123 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:01 pm

Take a look at the photo. It should help you. You should see that another half of a denticle to the right is where the far dates usually start. This photo is on the Attribution 101 page under the heading of date placement.

http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... bution_101




Sentry02_Lateral_Date.jpg
Sentry02_Lateral_Date.jpg (70.85 KiB) Viewed 214 times

demetri
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:45 am

Re: Help with date placement

Post by demetri » Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:52 pm

I see, so anything on third denticle is pretty much normal. I was looking at another area of 101 about c3 with images got me turned around. Thanks

Ghost
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:31 am

Re: Help with date placement

Post by Ghost » Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:59 am

I am a long time reader and I hope I am not out of bounds here, if I am I apologize, and this post may be removed if deemed inappropriate. I just thought I would share what I have developed and use regarding the topic of “date position” and “mint mark position.” I use the documented first strike coin images as the primary identifier for “standard date position” and “standard mm position.” Since these are the first known struck coins, I use these without regard to other mm styles or sizes. If I encounter different style or size mm's I determine their position off the first strike “standard mm position. By knowing that the denticles are in the die face and not in the collar, their location will not change. However, the count does change from 148 on the obverse and 148 on the reverse in 1878 to 150 on the obverse and 148 on the reverse in 1879 and remains consistent through 1921. If I am wrong I am sure someone will correct me. Here is an interesting note to know, on the Van Allen VAM-9 there are 148 denticles on the obverse and 150 on the reverse. As you will see in the pictures the denticle count does not have any affect on determining the position of the date or mm so long as the quadrants have an equal count and the points are taken off the proper denticle location. It is my opinion, the first strikes set the standards from the beginning, and it is just that, my opinion. I know some members are not fans of lines, but this helps me to eliminate the gray areas of this aspect of VAMing and may help others as well. Again, I just thought I'd share this.

This is how I determine “date position and “mint mark position”

For the obverse (Date):
Part 1) I use what I call the “hourglass triangle” I use it to determine the “date position” meaning centered, left or right off of center.
Part 2) I also use what I call “MSD ring" which is “Motto, Stars, and Date” ring. This ring will determine if the the date is high, low, or has a slant, or if any of the digits are placed high or low.

The 1878 P VAM-9 is the first known Morgan die set. So, since this is the first die set used at the Philadelphia mint, I use the obverse of this coin as the identifier of the “standard date position” the “standard date height” and standard slant. I use this as the standard across the 1878 -1904 P mint series.
VAN_ALLEN_ANAS-62_Presentation_Coin_1878-P-Ghost_2022.jpg
VAN_ALLEN_ANAS-62_Presentation_Coin_1878-P-Ghost_2022.jpg (188.87 KiB) Viewed 194 times

The 1878 S VAM-60 presentation coin is identified as the “first strike” commemorating the beginning coinage production at the San Francisco mint. Again, since this is a first die set used at the San Francisco mint, I use the obverse of this coin as the identifier of the “standard date position” the “standard date height” and standard slant. I use this as the standard across the 1878 -1904 S mint series.
1878_S_V60_PRESENTATION_PIECE_Ghost_2022.jpg
1878_S_V60_PRESENTATION_PIECE_Ghost_2022.jpg (134.76 KiB) Viewed 194 times

I could not locate any images of a first strike 1878 CC, so I currently use the VAM-11 as the temporary identifier of the “standard date position” the “standard date height” and standard slant. I have employed this as the standard across the 1878 -1885 and 1883 -1889 CC mint series. If anyone can point me in the direction of a CC mint first strike obverse and reverse images it would be greatly appreciated.
1878_CC_VAM_11_Ghost_2022.jpg
1878_CC_VAM_11_Ghost_2022.jpg (161.89 KiB) Viewed 194 times

The First 1879-O Morgan Dollar Struck on an Adjusted Planchet Engraved “THE FIRST DOLLAR ADJUSTED IN THE NEW ORLEANS MINT By MRS. C. CAHN.” Here again, since this is a first die set used at the New Orleans mint, I use the obverse of this coin as the identifier of the “standard date position” the “standard date height” and standard slant. I use this as the standard across the 1879 -1904 O mint series.
First_Adjusted_O_Mint_1879_O_Ghost_2022.jpg
First_Adjusted_O_Mint_1879_O_Ghost_2022.jpg (142.32 KiB) Viewed 194 times
NOTE: The above mentioned 1878 P, S, and CC and 1879 O all have the same date position.

Ghost
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:31 am

Re: Help with date placement

Post by Ghost » Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:00 am

For the reverse (MM):
Part 1) To determine the “standard mm position” meaning center, left, or right off of center I use three vertical parallel lines, one is the known center line, and two equally spaced lines one to the left and one to the right off the known center line, I call these vertical lines the “vertical standard mm center lines” which will determine if the the mm is left or right off center, or has a slant.
Part 2) I use two horizontal lines to determine if the the mm is placed high or low. These horizontal lines are what I call the “standard mm height lines” these will determine if the the mm is placed high or low.

Being that the 1878 S VAM-60 is identified as “first strike” San Francisco Morgan coin minted, I use the reverse of this coin as the identifier of the “standard mm position” the “standard mm height” and standard slant. I use this as the standard across the 1878 -1904 S mint series.
1878_S_V60_PRESENTATION_PIECE_Ghost_sixx_2022.jpg
1878_S_V60_PRESENTATION_PIECE_Ghost_sixx_2022.jpg (127.77 KiB) Viewed 194 times

As above, I could not locate any images of a first strike 1878 CC, so I currently use the VAM-11 as the temporary identifier of the “standard mm position” the “standard mm height” and standard slant across the 1878 -1885 and 1883 -1889 CC mint series.
1878_CC_VAM_11_Ghost_sixx_2022.jpg
1878_CC_VAM_11_Ghost_sixx_2022.jpg (217.18 KiB) Viewed 194 times

The First 1879-O from above, is a first die set used at the New Orleans mint, I use the reverse of this coin as the identifier of the of the “standard mm position” , the “standard mm height” and standard slant. I use this as the standard across the 1878 -1904 S mint series.
First_Adjusted_O_Mint_1879_O_Ghost_sixx_2022.jpg
First_Adjusted_O_Mint_1879_O_Ghost_sixx_2022.jpg (177.86 KiB) Viewed 194 times

User avatar
UNCLE BINGO
Posts: 118
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:41 pm

Re: Help with date placement

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:16 am

Extremely interesting ! My head may explode before I can truly grasps this sacred geometry lesson , but thank you just the same .

demetri
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:45 am

Re: Help with date placement

Post by demetri » Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:35 am

UNCLE BINGO wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:16 am
Extremely interesting ! My head may explode before I can truly grasps this sacred geometry lesson , but thank you just the same .
AMEN

Mediocrates007
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:19 pm

Re: Help with date placement

Post by Mediocrates007 » Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:25 am

Ghost wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:59 am
I am a long time reader and I hope I am not out of bounds here, if I am I apologize, and this post may be removed if deemed inappropriate. I just thought I would share what I have developed and use regarding the topic of “date position” and “mint mark position.” I use the documented first strike coin images as the primary identifier for “standard date position” and “standard mm position.” Since these are the first known struck coins, I use these without regard to other mm styles or sizes. If I encounter different style or size mm's I determine their position off the first strike “standard mm position. By knowing that the denticles are in the die face and not in the collar, their location will not change. However, the count does change from 148 on the obverse and 148 on the reverse in 1878 to 150 on the obverse and 148 on the reverse in 1879 and remains consistent through 1921. If I am wrong I am sure someone will correct me. Here is an interesting note to know, on the Van Allen VAM-9 there are 148 denticles on the obverse and 150 on the reverse. As you will see in the pictures the denticle count does not have any affect on determining the position of the date or mm so long as the quadrants have an equal count and the points are taken off the proper denticle location. It is my opinion, the first strikes set the standards from the beginning, and it is just that, my opinion. I know some members are not fans of lines, but this helps me to eliminate the gray areas of this aspect of VAMing and may help others as well. Again, I just thought I'd share this.

This is how I determine “date position and “mint mark position”

For the obverse (Date):
Part 1) I use what I call the “hourglass triangle” I use it to determine the “date position” meaning centered, left or right off of center.
Part 2) I also use what I call “MSD ring" which is “Motto, Stars, and Date” ring. This ring will determine if the the date is high, low, or has a slant, or if any of the digits are placed high or low.

The 1878 P VAM-9 is the first known Morgan die set. So, since this is the first die set used at the Philadelphia mint, I use the obverse of this coin as the identifier of the “standard date position” the “standard date height” and standard slant. I use this as the standard across the 1878 -1904 P mint series.
VAN_ALLEN_ANAS-62_Presentation_Coin_1878-P-Ghost_2022.jpg


The 1878 S VAM-60 presentation coin is identified as the “first strike” commemorating the beginning coinage production at the San Francisco mint. Again, since this is a first die set used at the San Francisco mint, I use the obverse of this coin as the identifier of the “standard date position” the “standard date height” and standard slant. I use this as the standard across the 1878 -1904 S mint series.
1878_S_V60_PRESENTATION_PIECE_Ghost_2022.jpg


I could not locate any images of a first strike 1878 CC, so I currently use the VAM-11 as the temporary identifier of the “standard date position” the “standard date height” and standard slant. I have employed this as the standard across the 1878 -1885 and 1883 -1889 CC mint series. If anyone can point me in the direction of a CC mint first strike obverse and reverse images it would be greatly appreciated.
1878_CC_VAM_11_Ghost_2022.jpg


The First 1879-O Morgan Dollar Struck on an Adjusted Planchet Engraved “THE FIRST DOLLAR ADJUSTED IN THE NEW ORLEANS MINT By MRS. C. CAHN.” Here again, since this is a first die set used at the New Orleans mint, I use the obverse of this coin as the identifier of the “standard date position” the “standard date height” and standard slant. I use this as the standard across the 1879 -1904 O mint series.
First_Adjusted_O_Mint_1879_O_Ghost_2022.jpg

NOTE: The above mentioned 1878 P, S, and CC and 1879 O all have the same date position.
I don’t understand the relevance of designating a “first strike” coin/die here as a standard since the way the date ended up on the working dies varied.

The basics as I recall are that in 1878 the 4 digits were hubbed, from 1879-1883 the left two digits were hubbed with the right two digits punched on the dies, from 1884-1904 all 4 digits were punched on the dies, and in 1921 the date was hubbed. I’m in the process of moving so I don’t have my LVA book handy, so I’m sure I’m missing something.

User avatar
ljs123
Posts: 1703
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:16 pm

Re: Help with date placement

Post by ljs123 » Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:41 pm

Very good exhaustive work.

I will continue to follow George Mallis & Leroy Van Allen's directions for date locations.
The attached photo is their method for assigning date locations from the Encyclopedia of Morgan & Peace Dollars.




Sentry02_Lateral_Date.jpg
Sentry02_Lateral_Date.jpg (70.85 KiB) Viewed 137 times

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 1927
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Help with date placement

Post by vampicker » Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:28 pm

I for one appreciate seeing other methodologies even if I'd never use them myself. I prefer the simplicity of the DPIS, but I do most of those guesstimates in hand. I can see where 'Ghost' might have a useful digital overlay for auction photos. It is worth noting as has already been stated that several differing design hub layouts were used for the Morgan series. And yes, date positions begin to vary in 1884. The hubbed or partially hubbed dates have their own set of issues.
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

User avatar
LateDateMorganGuy
Posts: 883
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:11 am

Re: Help with date placement

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:34 pm

Not sure I see the need for something like this. But folks draw lines all the time and it seems to work for them, somehow, just not sure for what or why. I try to stay away from making VAMming too precise for an imprecise hobby.

It's kinda like the suggestion put out there before about using only a 10x loupe. Anything more powerful is not going to help. But folks continue to use higher magnification for some reason.

keilg1
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:36 pm
Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: Help with date placement

Post by keilg1 » Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:57 pm

@Ghost, definitely not 'inappropriate' in my eyes.

Similar to @LateDateMorganGuy and @vampicker I don't foresee using this system because, and this is only my opinion, it exceeds Occam's razor - helping define parameters to help clarify discussions is a necessary part of good science but there is a negative return when things get too complicated.

I'm simply a more simple person - but if this works for you and for others, have at it! I don't foresee it replacing the original description @ljs123 linked, but it supplements it so no harm done!

Keep at it and suggesting changes. We're all well served to keep growth/open mindsets...

Post Reply